Guest Post: A Brief Response to “The God Delusion” – by Neil Shenvi

I’d first like to thank Ben for giving me the opportunity to write this guest post. I’m grateful that the general tenor of this blog is much more respectful than the average Internet discussion. Speaking personally, the arguments raised by this blog have been extremely useful in helping me formulate my faith and clarify the reasons that I am a Christian.

The topic of this post is Richard Dawkins’ book The God Delusion which has been hailed as a convincing defense of atheism. Dawkins sets out not only to defend atheism but to portray its worldview as morally and aesthetically pleasing in a way that atheist thinkers of the past (say, Nietzsche) didn’t. In fact, the majority of the book is not actually an argument against the existence of God, but rather a polemic against the origins, abuses, and beliefs of religion (in Chapters 1,2,5-10). (At this point, let me briefly apologize to anyone reading this post who, at the hands of professed Christians, has experienced some of the hatred that Dawkins describes. It makes me very ashamed, not of Christ, but of those of us who follow him and bring his name into such ill repute). However, since I have limited space, I’ve decided to focus only on the rational arguments for atheism since, to rephrase Dawkins: atheism’s (or religion’s) power to comfort (or offend) doesn’t make it true (or false).

Let me focus explicitly on the end of Chapter 4, since Dawkins presents in it what he calls “the central argument of [his] book” (p. 157; all quotations and page numbers are from the 2006 edition). I have tried to take Dawkins’ statements in context, but please correct me if you think I’ve been unfair.
His argument is as follows:
1. Life is too complex to have come about by pure, random chance
2. It is therefore tempting to believe that it was created by an “intelligent designer”(p. 157) like other complex things
3. However, this belief is false because a designer would be more complicated than the thing designed, and “the whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability” (p. 158)
4. Darwinian evolution shows how life “with [its] spectacular statistical improbability” could have been produced (p. 158)
5. There is no analogous argument for physics, but the anthropic principle allows us to take “more luck” into account than we normally would in most arguments (p. 158)
6. Probably a better argument for physics does exist
7. Therefore, “God almost certainly does not exist” (p. 158)
I’d like to point out two central inconsistencies in this argument. In addition, I’d like to examine whether Dawkins’ arguments are purely empirical and derived wholly from scientific evidence and reason, or whether they contain an element of “faith”, which I’ll take here to mean a belief consistent with, but not derived from, evidence.

First, let’s note that Dawkins’ argument is essentially one of probability. What Dawkins has attempted to show is not that God’s existence is disproved but merely rendered very, very improbable. In the section Irreducible Complexity, Dawkins points out that “Chance is not a solution [to the problem of biological complexity], given the high levels of improbability we see in living organisms, and no sane biologist would ever suggest that it was.” (p 119-120) We need to be very careful here. Technically speaking, chance is a possible solution to the problem of biological complexity in the sense that it is physically possible that in 40 million B.C. a random fluctuation of molecules accidentally assembled the entire Eocene ecosystem. In the same way, a hurricane in a factory just might assemble a 747. There are no physical laws that are actually violated by either process (not even the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics; e-mail me later). But what Dawkins is saying is that no scientist in his right mind would believe a theory that depended on such a small probability. In contrast, says Dawkins, natural selection provides an elegant mechanism for the production of complex lifeforms: “natural selection is a cumulative process, which breaks the problem of improbability up into small pieces” (p. 121). In other words, given that some primitive form of life exists, natural selection provides a mechanism which ensures that the development of complex life is, if not guaranteed, at least very very probable.

What about the origin of life? Dawkins freely admits that “in once sense, it is a bigger gap” and that the origin of life may have been an “extremely improbable event” (p. 135). When he has to conjure up odds for the sake of argument, Dawkins throws out a truly improbable number (1 in a billion, p. 138), although he does say later that he “doesn’t for a moment believe the origin of life was anywhere near so improbable in practice” (p. 138). Doesn’t this mean that complex life existing at all is incredibly improbable? No, says Dawkins, because of the anthropic principle (Dawkins is actually invoking the weak -as opposed to the strong- anthropic principle at this point). There are a billion, billion planets in the universe. Even if the chances of life evolving spontaneously on a random planet is one in a billion, that means that there are a billion planets on which life began, and given natural selection, nearly all of them will have evolved complex life. Of course we are on one of the lucky ones, because if we were on one of the unlucky ones, we wouldn’t be sitting here wondering why there is life on our planet.

Let me try to summarize Dawkins’ argument thus far: given the (weak) anthropic principle, and natural selection, it is not at all surprising (i.e. it is probable) that there is a planet (perhaps many planets) somewhere in the universe which contain complex, sentient life like humans; there is no need to invoke a designer. Now we come to the problem: what Dawkins has presented thus far is not an argument, but a framework. He set out to show that there is a natural and probable explanation for the origin of complex life in the universe. If P is the probability for the existence of sentient life somewhere in the universe, then he claims that P is large (say > 50%), so we need not look for a creator God. According to his argument, P = p * N where p is the probability of spontaneous biogenesis and the subsequent evolution of life on a random planet and N is the number of planets in the universe. Since astronomers and cosmologists tell us that N = 10^20, the final, conclusive step in his argument is to provide an estimate of p and to show that p * N is large. So what is the probability that Dawkins calculates? He doesn’t provide one. Although this number is the cornerstone of his argument, he makes absolutely no attempt to calculate it.

Since this number is such a crucial piece of his argument, let’s try to estimate it using Dawkins’ (admittedly low) number 1/10^9 for the probability of the spontaneous genesis of life on a random planet and his estimate of the number of planets in the universe, 10^20. If these numbers are correct, then the probability that sentient life evolved somewhere in the universe is essentially 100%. But are we missing anything? Later in the chapter, Dawkins mentions that “it may be that the origin of life is not the only major gap in the evolutionary story that is bridged by sheer luck, anthropically justified. For example, my colleague… has suggested that the origin of the eucaryotic cell was an even more … statistically improbable step than the origin of life. The origin of consciousness might be another major gap whose bridging was of the same order of improbability” (p. 140). But if we take Dawkins at his word, something interesting happens. If -as he suggests- each of those steps were equally unlikely (1/10^9), then the probability of overcoming all three would be 1/10^27. Given that there are 10^20 planets, that leaves only a one in ten million chance that there is any planet, anywhere in the universe that contains sentient life like us.

Let me be clear that I am not a biologist, nor am I claiming that the probability of spontaneous biogenesis is one in a billion or one in a trillion, or any other number (if any molecular biologists are reading this, I would be very interested to know your estimate; I’ve asked biologists that I know and there doesn’t seem to be a consensus). My point is that Dawkins does not provide any number at all because he is taking his argument the wrong way around. If you are trying to prove that P is large and find that P = p * N, the next logical thing to do is to estimate p and N using what we know about physical laws from astronomy and biochemistry (see p. 137). It is a specious argument to instead assert “since we know P is almost 1, we can estimate p.” Unfortunately, this is precisely what Dawkins does. On page 140, at the end of his argument about biology, he says “The anthropic principle states that, since we are alive, eucaryotic and conscious, our planet has to be one of the intensely rare planets that has bridged all three gaps”. But the anthropic principle (as Dawkins is using it) doesn’t exactly say that. It says that we have a certain number (10^18) of planets to work with. If the probability of conscious life evolving spontaneously is greater than 1/10^18, then whatever our theory of biogenesis is, it is a probable one. But conversely, it also says that if the probability is significantly less than 1/10^18, then our theory is very unlikely indeed. It simply does not say “since we’re here, we must be a very probable event” (the strong anthropic principle does make this argument, but Dawkins doesn’t invoke it, presumably because it undermines his argument that there is a probable, natural explanation for the universe). Dawkins has constructed an elaborate framework, but has left out the final step which is the very crux of his argument.

My central objection to Dawkins’ reasoning is essentially this: he has mistaken one of his postulates for a conclusion. What was his postulate? That there IS a natural, probable explanation for the origin of life. If this statement is accepted as a postulate then, and only then, does his reasoning make sense. If there is a natural, probable explanation for the origin of life, then we can assert (indeed, must assert), as Dawkins does, that “our planet has to be one of the intensely rare planets that has bridged all three gaps” (p. 141). However, if we are trying to determining WHETHER there is a natural, probable explanation for life, we certainly cannot use this reasoning. Well, why does Dawkins’ believe that there is a natural, probable explanation for life? I assert it is part of his faith in materialism. At this point, this statement might appear a bit excessive, but I believe that further justification emerges when we examine Dawkins’ next argument regarding the values of the fundamental physical constants.

Dawkins points out that there are six (although there may be as many as 26) fundamental physical constants, which, if any of them were altered very, very slightly from their current values, would prohibit the existence of a life-supporting universe (usually due to the collapse of the universe within a few attoseconds of the Big Bang). Of course, this presents a similar puzzle as the origins of complex biological life and, in a sense, is a precondition for it: if these constants hadn’t lined up and the universe had collapsed, complex life wouldn’t exist.

Let’s stop for a moment at this point. We have been trying thus far to determine whether or not there is a natural, probable explanation for the existence of complex life somewhere in the universe. Let us assume that Dawkins’ argument about biology is correct: natural selection provides a mechanism that explains how otherwise highly improbable-looking evidence (biological life) has a very probable explanation. Dawkins takes great pains to show that the beauty of Darwinian evolution is that it provides such an elegant mechanism, without which the existence of life would be highly suspect. But what if we did not have an elegant theory like natural selection which purported to account for the complexity that we observe? Would not the existence of a finely tuned, complex ecosystem then be highly suspect?

That is precisely the case we find ourselves in when it comes to the fundamental constants. To quote Dawkins in what is a bit of an understatement: “we don’t yet have an equivalent crane [i.e. mechanism] for physics” (p. 158). In other words, given our current understanding of the laws of physics, there is no objectively verified theory which explains the coincidence of the fundamental constants. If they were determined by pure chance, then the probability that the universe would have been able to sustain life is ridiculously small (Roger Penrose apparently estimated the probability to be 1 in 10^(10^123) ). I think it is at this point that Dawkins’ presuppositions become most apparent. For instance, as far as I’m aware there is not a single piece of experimental evidence for a multiverse (see the recent review of Susskind’s book in Nature: www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7069/full/438739a.html). In a preface to his treatment of multiverse theory in the Elegant Universe, Brian Greene states that “No one knows if these ideas are right or wrong, and certainly they currently lie on the outskirts of mainstream science” (p. 366). That is not surprising since the infinite universes postulated by multiverse theory are usually tucked away in black holes or in other dimensions where we can’t observe them. In the face of no concrete evidence and overwhelmingly negative odds, Dawkins states that “We should not give up hope of a better [mechanism] arising in physics” (p. 158). Perhaps we should not. But again, my objection is not about whether some alternate theory of physics exists that will explain life. My argument is that any belief that such a theory exists rests, as Dawkins says, on “hope” (p. 158), not on evidence.

A fundamental postulate of the materialist (I use the word descriptively, not pejoratively) worldview which Dawkins espouses is that: “everything in the universe can be feasibly explained by natural laws”, a statement to which I think Dawkins would readily assent. But is this assertion based on solely on empirical, objective evidence? There is an easy way to find out. Can everything in the universe currently be explained by natural laws, as we now understand them? In the case of physics, at least, the answer is a resounding no. The immediate objection is that we would be able to explain these phenomena if we had the right theory. But how do you know there is such a “right theory”? Such an assertion merely brings us back to the original postulate. The assertion that “at some point in the future, we WILL have a theory of that explains everything” is no more or less evidence-based than the assertion that “at some point in the future, we WILL live on the moon”. Both of these statements are plausible; they may even be true. But they certainly are based, at root, on faith: they are not in conflict with the evidence, but they display a trust which goes beyond the evidence.

Let me be clear that I am not disparaging Dawkins’ for having a worldview. I have one too. Everyone has one. You can’t do science or mathematics or anything unless you begin with a set of assumptions about the nature of reality. These assumptions may appear very reasonable and almost unavoidable, but it is important to recognize that they are assumptions, not conclusions. I also have deliberately avoided the question of God’s existence. I do happen to think that science gives us very clear reasons to question materialistic assumptions and to believe in the God who has revealed himself in the Bible. Historical evidence regarding the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ gives us even more. I also think that Dawkins’ philosophical arguments against God’s existence (for instance, his statement in Point 3 on page 158 that God is improbable because he is complex) are simply wrong. But for the purposes of this essay, I have limited myself to Dawkins’ scientific arguments in order to show that they are not as clear-cut as he claims and that scientific evidence does not necessarily lead us to materialism. Rather, we import materialism, or deism, or theism into our reasoning about evidence.

To restate my central objection, I believe that Dawkins is failing to distinguish between his assumptions and his conclusions. As a result, he is unable to see how much his worldview is coloring his interpretation of the evidence. When it comes to physics (and as a consequence to biology), the evidence we face is a set of fundamental constants which all conspire to permit the existence of life in a manner currently so improbable that it defies description. What is it that makes Dawkins so confident that such a coincidence has a natural explanation? What makes him sure that multiverse theory, or many worlds quantum theory, or a grand unification theory which so far have no objective justification will explain the universe? What makes him certain that, in the end, we will find a solution that does not involve a personal, omnipotent, creator? Faith. A belief that is not in conflict with the evidence, but which displays a trust that goes beyond the evidence. Dawkins, like all of us, possesses faith. As human beings, we cannot decide whether to have faith; we can only decide what or whom to put our faith in.

-Neil Shenvi

20 Responses to “Guest Post: A Brief Response to “The God Delusion” – by Neil Shenvi”

  1. Posolxstvo Says:

    Neil – You’ve obviously put a lot of thought into this, and you really do deserve some sort of a response. Especially one that addresses your specific argument. The trouble is, I haven’t read The God Delusion in something like a year and don’t have the intimate knowledge of it that I would need to properly respond to your analysis of his logic. Nor am I particularly strong in statistics or probability or biology, and so am not feeling qualified to respond on those terms.

    What I will say, is that I think that you are using the existence of gaps in the body of our scientific knowledge about how certain things evolved as some sort of proof that there is a manner of intelligent design at work, which is one of the proofs of God that Dawkins specifically addresses. What Dawkins says about these gaps is that there is a tendency to think of the filling of these gaps as being done in one fell swoop, whereas the body of evidence doesn’t bear that postulate up. Those cases where we have been able to identify an evolutionary gap that seemed insurmountable but later were able to string together the numerous minute steps that eventually bridged that evolutionary gap have consistently shown that the fell swoop method is not how it is done.

    So, admittedly, emergence of “life” is a pretty big gap. As is the evolution of sentience. And so on. But they are simply further examples of gaps nonetheless. I think that all Dawkins is saying is that pointing at a gap and declaring it unfillable except by intervention by an external deity has consistently been incorrect. And I expect that he is saying that he thinks that it is logical that these other gaps can be filled in the same way, but we haven’t found those steps yet.

  2. succumb Says:

    I am not arguing for or against the existence of God, but has anyone thought that if there was a god….that he is capable of creating life THROUGH evolution. If there was an intellegent designer, i would imagine he/she/it would be capable of creating a framework and highly complex, ordered system of perpetuating life. Couldn’t it be that these systems are just the blueprints that god created?

  3. Thor Odhner Says:

    Neil,

    Let me start by applauding your thorough, careful approach to taking on this analysis & response to The God Delusion… Having read it, and gotten quite a lot out of it, I believe you’ve done a very eloquent job of both summarizing some of Dawkins’ key arguments, and pointing to problem areas where perhaps an over-simplistic version of an argument was included that would benefit from further discussion. I would contend that, if you’re looking for such problem areas, you’ll probably find as many, or more, in just about any full-length book you examine — written communication of complex arguments is certainly a trick, which is why even HIGHLY structured complex mathematical proofs usually need to be rewritten several times before they are accepted as air tight.

    Rather than try to point out “errors” in your logic (which would probably be pretty difficult) I’m going to (quickly and not-so-carefully, I’m afraid, as that’s all my current schedule will allow for) argue that in your attempt to poke holes in Dawkins’ argument, you’ve perhaps missed the aim/style of his commentary. Talking in absurdly large uncertainties and numbers that our minds aren’t fine-tuned to grasp, I don’t think Dawkins was ever attempting to arrive at a ballpark probability number to point to as evidence against God theory and to account for the many, many blind spots we have. Any such figure would be laughable the minute he threw it out there, because it would be so unbelievably speculative. And I don’t think an inability to conjure up a number undermines his argument in the least. On the contrary… I think the “framework” that Dawkins establishes, which you seem to think he’s confused with a quantifiable argument, is precisely what he was after… a foundation on which more people can start to build reasonable ideas and theories about how we came to be, rather than resorting to the most popular myths simply because they have nowhere to start. Nonsense gets off the ground a lot easier when a topic is so complex that it’s *really difficult* to make sense of it.

    Throughout the book, Dawkins speaks a lot about “consciousness raisers” — conceptual ideas that start to coax us away from a state of paralysis over extremely complicated questions and give us little tools to employ in making sense of them. The idea that natural selection CAN and DOES explain how very small, simple, and even random steps can add up to a picture that LOOKS for all the world like it was intentionally designed, and that the only ingredients needed to set this process in motion are replication, change and competitive advantage, is not an idea most people are fully aware of. Once you ARE fully aware of this concept, you are better equipped to hypothesize about how various things which are very complex and very effective in their environment may have come to be. The book is full of eloquently illustrated ideas that, similar to this one, simply invite us to consider that the answers may be right there in front of our faces, and that we may, in time, be able to track the whole improbably history of events and mechanisms back to the start. But I don’t think for a minute he was claiming to have solved the mystery himself or to have given us anywhere near all of the tools we’ll need to get a clear picture.

    “If P is the probability for the existence of sentient life somewhere in the universe, then he claims that P is large (say > 50%), so we need not look for a creator God. According to his argument, P = p * N where p is the probability of spontaneous biogenesis and the subsequent evolution of life on a random planet and N is the number of planets in the universe. Since astronomers and cosmologists tell us that N = 10^20, the final, conclusive step in his argument is to provide an estimate of p and to show that p * N is large.”

    For the record, N certainly does NOT need to be large to avoid the ‘need’ for a creator God. The idea that our existence being extremely improbable could ever NECESSITATE that we resort to a specific story about how a supernatural force imposed itself on or created our material universe is a logical leap of epic proportions! If we take that leap, we’re explaining observed absurdity with FAR MORE absurdity in the form of a hypothesis that is both untestable and not suggested in any way by the evidence. The fact that Question X remains unanswered does NOT establish a random Answer X as a necessary or likely answer. If anything, our problem is TOO MANY possible answers… not TOO FEW, so let’s hold off on making up comforting stories and calling them our best guesses.

    Similarly, with a near-infinite number of events occurring in the history of the universe, there is certainly no reason to expect that any given event must have had anywhere near a 50% likelihood. You can be sure that MANY things have happened against nearly impossible odds… the least likely outcome in 100 billion has certainly occurred at some point. A historical view of statistics is far different than a predictive view… we shouldn’t turn around and say that it’s reasonable to expect that the least likely outcome in 100 billion WILL occur in a given situation, or give much thought to explanations of an observed phenomena that depend on such minute odds, but aren’t any more supported by the evidence than more likely explanations… BUT, if all of the evidence seems to point to a given explanation, in spite of our best (EXTREMELY ROUGH) calculations of its probability being very low, that low probability is hardly a reason to toss out the theory before we have a better one.

    I also want to challenge the idea that having STRONG expectations that a physical, scientific explanation does exist for a given thus-far-unexplained phenomenon is based on ‘faith’ rather than evidence. We humans are very good at recognizing patterns. MANY, MANY unexplained phenomena throughout our history have been chalked up to supernatural causes. Many of those phenomena are still unexplained. But ALL of the ones that HAVE been definitively explained have turned out to have a scientifically measurable/observable mechanism behind them. OVER and OVER and OVER this has been the answer (when one has been found). Things that seemed impossible or magical became entirely sensible once we learned more about our material world, the laws of physics, etc. Now… I’m not saying this proves that there aren’t some mysteries with supernatural explanations. Perhaps many of the unexplained questions are unexplained BECAUSE they have supernatural causes… but we’ve got NO experience with definitively finding this to be the case, and chances are, we never will have any experience like this (many claim this is God’s way of protecting our free will). But you can’t lump both expectations together as equally “faith-based,” because one pattern has born out ALL definitive explanations we’ve ever known, and the other has born out ZERO. Put another way, we’ve ALL experienced learning that something that seemed magical was NOT magical, but few of us claim and NONE of us can demonstrate that we’ve seen anything that demonstrably established supernatural causes as its only possible explanation.

  4. Ben Barnett Says:

    Neil, I find myself echoing much of what Thor writes, especially the end of his second to last paragraph. Dawkins, in my opinion, is very willing to stand in awe of the universe. He sees the God of Einstein (the Universe and the Laws that govern said Universe), for instance, and recognizes how humble our knowledge of the Universe really is, and how feeble our attempts at grasping it REALLY are.

    With that in mind, instead of responding to your whole post, which was a very interesting read by the way, I’ll ask a question first.

    In your 2nd to last paragraph, you note that science gives us good reasons to believe in the God who revealed himself through the Bible? Maybe you could get into that a little bit further? Which Bible to you mean? The literal Bible? If so, how do you get past Genesis, as a scientist & Christian, without needing to make up new meanings for things like the definition of the word “Day”, in order to think that the Bible is a good source of information?

    You are right that we add our notions about the world to the evidence that we are presented with and that this is inescapable. I won’t argue with you there. Materialism, Deism, Pantheism, Theism… everyone has their “In the end, my theory is that THIS is how it works” stance. It is up to us, then, to be sure to be honest about two things. 1. That we’re dealing with a hypothesis/theory, and then 2. HOW/WHY our theory is reasonable, predictive, etc.

    Yes there is an element of faith in everything we do (for instance, I could say that there is an element of faith in stating that the Eagles beat the Steelers 15-6 this weekend, even though ALL the relevant stats agree with that statement. After all, it could have been trick photography, a phony replay just to confuse me, I don’t know, you name it. Anything. So yes, I even have to have faith about the Eagles defensive domination). I think, given evrything I know about ESPN, ESPN.com, DirectTV, my friends, my fantasy football information sources and the Eagles website, that I can safely say that I KNOW the Eagles won 15-6 this weekend. Go Birds, by the way.

    So faith IS every where, in varying degrees. In noting the ubiquitous nature of faith, you sound a bit like Paul Davies did in his essay “Taking Science on Faith” (you can find it on Edge.org), in which he compares the faith found in science to the faith found in religious belief and finds them quite SIMILAR. That seems to be the downfall, to me. Comparing the necessary faiths of life (like believing that the Eagles won) to the completely arbitrary & unnecessary faiths of theistic religion seems almost irresponsible.

    It is ridiculous to claim (not that you necessarily are, although I think you imply it)that the repeatedly tested and temporary faith of science should be seen at the same level as the timeless, blind faith in religion, which has yet to pass even a single good experimental test. Instead it has a history of failing to predict experiments. The faith of science is repeatedly tested and challenged. The faith is changed. The faith is tenuous. The faith is just a working hypothesis. Science faith stands in sharp contrast to the untested faith in religion. The two types of faith are simply not comparable! Science rejects faith that demands the sacrifice of reason. Religion doesn’t.

    It’s not that Dawkins is certain there is no omnipotent, personal creator. It’s that he’s as certain as he can be that Religion, thus far, has provided us with no study on the subject (let alone ANSWERS!), and yet they preach the nature of this character as if their validation attempts had been exhaustive, and their findings conclusive – even in the face of contradictory findings about geology, biology, astronomy, etc.

    If it were up to me, I would change the last sentence of your post to “As humans we cannot decide whether to have faith, we can only decide what or who we put our faith in, and how much faith we put in said person or thing, based on our logical/reasonable interpretation of the experiences we are faced with, including scientific experiment.”

    Hmm. Plenty more thoughts, but I’ll stop.

    CCD,

    Ben

  5. Thor Odhner Says:

    succumb,

    That certainly COULD be the case, and in many ways it gets us past all of the uncomfortable, glaring inconsistencies with religious claims vs. scientific evidence/findings. I see two main problems with this theory:

    1. It still doesn’t get any religions off the hook that make specific arguments about how anything was physically accomplished by God which contradict those mechanisms we’re considering attributing to God… like the earth being a certain number of years old or created in 6 days or any other number of claims… If evolution is god’s device for creating the diversity on this planet, then surely an anywhere near literal interpretation of the Bible would disagree. If you take every specific claim about religion that seems to contradict science and conclude that it must be allegorical, then you’re kinda taking away most if not all of the valuable input those claims could be said to provide. Why do I need a story about a fictional couple to explain evolution in totally inaccurate terms when I can study the word around me and learn about it directly?

    2. Why believe in God? It’s a pretty out-there conclusion to come to unless you claim to have witnessed/experienced/learned things that could only have been the work of a God. If I hear a buzzing sound, then feel movement on my neck just when the buzzing stops, then feel an acute, itchy pain where the movement was, I’m going to assume there’s a mosquito there and smack it, even though I can’t see it. But if I consider the same situation but suggest that perhaps there’s a mosquito there even if I haven’t heard or seen or felt anything that would lead me to believe there is a mosquito present, it’d be a pretty silly thing for me to suspect, let alone assume. If God theory doesn’t help explain any of our deepest questions, then why even consider it? Why not Invisible Panda theory instead? Maybe an invisible panda is responsible for evolution.

  6. succumb Says:

    Thor, I am in agreement with your response when it discusses the ridiculousness of biblical literalists, and I am not in agreement with them. But your complaints of religion are limited to only dogmatic claims about physically measurable things in our external world. Your complaint is irrelevant when dealing with matters of immeasurable things such as Is there an afterlife? Is there an all-loving being us? Reincarnation. Is there a purpose to our existence? etc etc.

    To your second point, I don’t think it is an irreqular or rare occurence that people h tave witnessed/experienced/learned things that point in the ‘God’ direction. Many people experience something that makes them feel there is something greater working around them, and this is a corraborative evidence for people. I have certainly had such experiences.

    As far as your invisible panda theory. You can say it is foolish to say a god is responsible, or an invisible panda, or an alien named Xenu, but you are foolishly missing the point. The point is that there could very well be a conscious something that is responsible. You can claim it to be a panda, or a human, or anything…..I don’t know. But to say it is nothing is almost more naive. Find me one example of anything in the measurable world around you where something arose from nothing.

  7. thorotaxi Says:

    succumb -

    I was only attempting to explain, in response to your specific question, why the suggestion that “Evolution could be God’s own mechanism” merely escapes the contradictions of creationism and science by not even attempting to explain something that “creationism theory” attempts to explain. It doesn’t provide us with a sensible alternative explanation for something we have no scientific explanation for… it merely attributes the scientific explanation we already DO have back to some agent that has been, in most cases, invoked to explain the issue around which we’re now skirting. I didn’t say anything, nor did your question, about afterlife, purpose, etc. You asked about evolution/creation and I answered about it.

    If you think I’m “foolishly missing the point.” it’s because “the point” you’re now following up with is completely tangential to your initial question and to my answer. Had you ever stated that point, (that there could very well be a conscious something that is responsible) I would have said that I agree… perhaps I would have begun my response with something like “That certainly COULD be the case” … oh wait. I’m fully aware that many people feel that experiences and awarenesses they have “point in the ‘God’ or ’something greater’ direction.” Hey… the more vague you want to be about god, the more plausible your god becomes to me. I believe in things greater than myself too. My point is simply that a if a physical, comprehensible mechanism is shown to be operating, we can claim that God is behind it, and God may be, but that certainly doesn’t ‘point’ to god any more than rice crispy treats do.

    On your final point, asking if we’ve ever seen “something come from nothing” assumes that the physical universe WAS nothing and BECAME something. I never made that claim. People are so obsessed with the question of how everything CAME to exist… as if non-existence necessarily predates existence. As far as I can tell, with Conservation of Energy, we have absolutely no experience with anything coming from nothing or going to nothing, so the naive absurdity at work here is actually the assumption that all of this must have NOT existed at some point.

    By the way, I’m always happy to be challenged, and I very often find a lot of value in the input, correction, and clarifications people offer… but with all due respect, I like to have responses be based on what I said before I’m called naive, foolish, dogmatic, etc.

  8. Posolxstvo Says:

    Neil — You say in your response to my comment that you are not arguing for or against god, but then immediately start to propose a framework for god to be the primary mover – the creator of life, the designer of evolution.

    I have often thought that evolution, if it is a design, is without a doubt one of the most intelligent designs I have seen. As an architect of software solutions, I can assure you that a product that is eternally adaptable to its environment is *incredibly* complex. It would take forever to write such a program. And then maintenance would become a nightmare. So, I’ll grant that evolution is a heck of a design.

    IF it is a design. That’s a big “if”.

    Here’s what I know about that. The bible says it isn’t. If you take the bible literally, evolution doesn’t exist.

    And here’s what I know about THAT. The bible is purportedly the word of god, and yet the only writing god ever did personally (according to the bible itself) was the original set of tablets of the ten commandments, which Moses then destroyed.

    Everything else was scribed by man.

    Granted, they wrote what they said that god told them to write. But they wrote it.

    Now, I don’t know if god exists or does not exist. You say that you have experienced god in your life, I say that I don’t know that I have. That’s pretty much where that discussion ends. You can’t have the god experience *for* me, so there’s no point in really going further with it than that. I’ll allow that there is a possibility that there is a higher power that I have not yet experienced that some call God, others call Allah, and still others call Brahma, and even others call witches and ghosts. That’s possible.

    I’ll even allow that if such a higher power is there that some people may have had some sort of “revelation” and that there may be some truth that is a part of that higher power that is revealed through these revelations. But if you tell me that the bible, the koran, dianetics, the book of mormon, or any other text is the sole source of that truth, I will humbly and respectfully disagree, for I have seen as much truth in tolstoy as I have in any of those other texts. And, if you try to convince me that the human beings who acted as conduits for those revealed truths didn’t apply their own little twists and seasonings to the soup for good intentions or for nefarious intentions, I would be hard to convince. Textual criticisms say otherwise.

    Forgive me if I have strayed from the original point somewhat. I am a slave to my tangential thought process.

  9. Posolxstvo Says:

    Oops. For some reason, I thought that succumb and Neil were one and the same. My bad. That said, I stick by my comments, otherwise.

  10. succumb Says:

    i also would be hard to convince that any of those texts are the ‘word of god’. Thats just an absurd idea to me, because language itself is so flawed . I am however reluctant to dismiss them altogether, because I think a lot (not all) of what they say hold water.

    My idea of a God (whatever that means) is vague, because I can’t claim to ‘know’ much else, although I do believe (through experience and observation) that there are certain characteristics that I attribute to a higher power. It wouldn’t be worthwhile of me to debate this with you, because you (posolxtvo) have already pointed out that I can’t experience them for you. I agree with that. On the other hand, there are things that you may have experienced, or truths you have come to that I haven’t. This is fine, and you are entitled to them without me saying…no, that is wrong. What do I know?

    I guess I’ll shift my discussion here and ask this:

    1) Hypothetically, Say I have a ‘revelation’ that suggests to me ‘truths’ about reality, say, that there is an afterlife. With no scientific knowledge to prove otherwise. Can I, with sound reason, choose to believe them? If No, why not? If yes…..

    2)What if I describe these to a friend and the friend says…..”Yes, that agrees with my experiences in life.” Can he, with sound reason, choose to believe them too?

    3)Say I decide to write these thoughts down in a book and a stranger reads them and agrees with them too, can he, with sound reason, choose to believe it also?

    4)What if the book becomes popular and 100 people agree with it and start using it as a guide, can they, with sound reason do this?

    I guess I’m asking, where do you draw the line in this scenario, if the subject is something outside of the empirical world, What can you honestly say is true or not true. I certainly don’t know, but ‘not-knowing’ is not just pointing out what i don’t know, its also knowing that I don’t know what I don’t know. If that makes sense.

  11. Posolxstvo Says:

    First off, let me say that I would be suspect of any revelation that wasn’t a clear cut case right out of Bruce Almighty. Even then, I think that I would, by way of Occam’s Razor, come up with a much more logical explanation such as “Someone is playing a trick on me.”

    That said, I can’t tell you what to believe or not to believe. But let me ask it a different way – what if your revelation had you believe that there was a clan of little green men living inside your head. Would that be a rational conclusion? I suppose that without seeing your evidence, I can’t say it isn’t. But you’d have a hell of a time convincing me.

    So, you write your book. And there are a hundred people who, of their own volition, choose to believe that you had a revelation and that you have a clan of green men in your skull. Okay, that’s fine.

    But if you and your 100 disciples start trying to convince others that they are going to be punished if they don’t also believe that, then we are in dangerous territory. And if it comes down to killing infidels because they don’t believe in your green men, then you have gone off the deep end.

    “But I’m not talking about little green men” you may be saying. To which I respond – fine. But do you have any more evidence of a revelation from god/allah/budda/jesus/witches/etc than you would have for the little green men?

    Let’s also talk about belief versus knowledge. What you *believe* is not the same as what you *know*. You believe that there are little green men in your head. But do you know that? That’s where evidence comes to play. If you are the only one, or if you are one of a hundred people out of the 5 billion folks who live here on this planet, who has any evidence of your LGMs, is it reasonable to say that you know that you have LGMs?

    When my kids ask me if I believe in ghosts, I respond by saying “I’ve never seen a ghost.” I don’t tell them that there are categorically no ghosts, even though all my evidence leads me to that conclusion, because all I can say for sure is that I have never seen a ghost. That’s the approach I try to take with all of these epistemological questions. I want them to be free to come to their own conclusions. But if I raised them to be afraid that LGMs in your head may punish them if they have impure thoughts, are they free to make their own determinations? I mean, I’m also the one who told them that fire burns, and dogs might bite. They kind of HAVE to believe me. So far, I’ve not steered them wrong. Why would I be wrong about this one? Is not the fear of punishment (that I have convinced them is real) an inducement to believe, regardless of whether it makes sense or not?

  12. Seth Says:

    First of all, I have not read The God Delusion, and I’ve read most of what is written on this thread, and respond because there seem to be some very good points made…and also quite a meandering of what is centrally being debated.

    I always feel the need to disclaim, but I won’t until someone makes me, and there are just a few key points that I’d like to either expand on, or bring up.

    1) I feel the need to highlight what Thor briefly mentioned, and that is how badly your average person understands looking backwards at the improbability of things that have already happened. If I were to win the lottery, I would be a little freaked out…but at least I would look around at all the other people who had played the lottery and lost…and I clearly intended to try and win the lottery. But imagine if this lottery was one contended by planets in the universe and the win was the cropping up of sentient(sp?) life. Whatever the odds of winning…if there were enough planets, one would win…and would look around at the other barren planets, unaware that they were even in this crazy lottery and come to their conclusions. I mean…what were the chances that I would actually have been born…not some guy to my parents…but exactly me? Nearly exactly zero…but people are born all the time, each of the completely impossible. I may not be doing a good job of making my point here…but it is that the argument that human life was unlikely to arise by chance and therefore MUST have been intelligently designed doesn’t hold any water at all with me. It is totally possible in my mind that we are dealing with an infinity of opportunities and at least in some way zero over infinity is 1(well not 1, but more than zero). Forget the measurable universe which some people claim to be able to approximate the size of…who is to say that there aren’t many others? Now, Neil is right…there certainly isn’t evidence that there are…but to me, there certainly could be. This also isn’t any kind of an argument that there is no God…if I won the lottery, it certainly could have been fixed.

    2) As to the question of whether or not we will ever find a unified theory of physics and fully explain the world…I don’t think that’s all that important of a question. I would be absolutely shocked if we did…I feel like there is a good chance that these answers (if they exist at all) lie behind a curtain…which the human brain is not able, nor will ever be able to penetrate. And if they did…I wouldn’t rule out the idea of a God like “creator” but it’s very clear to me that given the incredible inconsistency of the so called revealed doctrine of Christian religions…people are making a whole lot of errors in their description of this god and how he operates. And the reason I say that the brain of man may never evolve to be able to find metaphysical answers is because evolution is correlated with survival, not ability to determine truth. If knowledge of why we are here and how the universe came to be (if it ever didn’t exist)…does not help people survive and procreate…then we will never move in that direction. But so what? All that does is leave the door open for people to choose to believe something that makes them feel good…and I thought Dawkins was just trying to defend the atheist/agnostic position, not to prove there wasn’t a God. Does he believe that they will find this unified theory and all religious people will admit they were wrong?

    3) My major beef with most religions is their self-righteousness, not the make up of the beliefs. I really dislike when people compare faith in some religious doctrine with faith in science. The collective knowledge of the theoretical physics community is true in a much more real way than any religious doctrine, but it just doesn’t even attempt to answer questions like “What is the point of life”, or “What should be doing”, or “What happens when we die”. So, I have no problem with people who choose to believe any story of god, especially for the reason that it improves their life or allows them to sleep at night (as opposed to because they are certain that it is true). I actually understand that…part of me wishes I could believe it. What does bother me is any one of them who thinks that the personal religion they have chosen applies to anyone else. I don’t support people saying…you believe in God?, you’re crazy, and I don’t support people saying…you need to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

    This was a little less focused than I would have liked…my apologies to anyone who read the whole thing.

  13. Neil Says:

    Hi everyone,
    Sorry for the lateness of this post, and thanks for all the positive responses.
    I think most of the responses were not directed at my critique of Dawkins’ argument about the nonexistence of God, but rather at the larger question of the existence of God. I’d like to reiterate that my essay was very deliberately limited to determining whether Dawkins’ argument was a logically, internally consistent proof that it is unlikely that God exists. I concluded that it was not. Thor, I disagree that Dawkins is only trying to present a framework based on his own language throughout the book. After the 6-item argument on p. 158 of his book (which I summarized in my essay) Dawkins says: “If the argument of this chapter is accepted… the God Hypothesis is untenable”. He is very clearly trying to present an argument from which it logically follows that God’s existence is unlikely, not merely an intellectual framework.
    However, as Posolxstvo (what’s your real name?) states, even if we accept that Dawkins’ argument is incomplete, it does not follow that God exists. I completely agree. In fact, that is why I didn’t attempt to argue in favor of the existence of God from the gaps in Dawkins’ argument (or from gaps in our scientific knowledge). What kind of God exists only inside the gaps of human understanding? I agree with Dawkins that an argument from the gaps is a very weak one.
    In fact, the God of the Bible is anything but a God of the gaps. The Bible informs us that God is the creator and sustainer of absolutely everything in the universe. Far from being relegated to some dark, remote corners, the proof of his existence is literally in everything that is created. The Bible says that every star in the sky cries out that God exists. He relates to the whole Universe like a painter relates to a painting or, to use Posolxstvo’s fasinating analogy, as a programmer to a program. (That, incidentally, is why saying that God can’t perform miracles is so ridiculous. What programmer can’t change the parameters in his program whenever he wants?)
    Answering other questions: Ben, I think that you may have misunderstand what it means that the Bible is to be understood “literally”. I believe that the Bible is God’s authoritative, inerrant message to humanity. However, the Bible is still a book that should be read like any other book: with a careful interpretive framework (or “hermeneutic”). For instance, when Jesus says: “I am the good shepherd”, I think that any reasonable person would see that he is using a metaphor. We shouldn’t respond to him: “Liar! You’re not a shepherd, you’re a carpenter!”
    So what framework do Christians use? In general, most scholars recommend trying to determine what meaning the author intended to convey and what understanding the original listeners would have had. For instance, many people have puzzled over why in Genesis 1, God separates the light and from the darkness on Day 1, and then creates the sun and moon on Day 4. That made no sense, even to ancient commentators. But think about it: who were the original hearers? They were the ancient Israelites, who had just been brought out of Egypt. At that time, literally the entire world worshipped almost every object they could lay their hands on, especially the sun and the moon. But God is saying through Moses: the sun and moon are not gods; they are just objects that I created and that are utterly dependent on me as their creator. I don’t even need them to produce light! I can produce light if I want to just because I am God. If we view things from a purely modern perspective we can miss some of the major points of the narrative that the original hearers would have understood.
    Ben specifically asked me about the duration of creation. I think, though I’m not sure, that the account in Genesis 1 was intended as a poetic account of God’s creation of the universe. Then the word “day” is being used metaphorically, which is fairly common in the rest of the Bible (for instance, look at Gen. 2:4!). The careful structure of Gen. 1 with three days of forming (light/darkness, earth/sky, seas/land) followed by three days of filling (sun/moon, sea creatures/birds, land creatures/man) may indicate that what Moses is mainly communicating is the orderliness of creation and the relation of various creatures to their environment and even the general order of creation (does anyone find it shocking that apart from the sun and moon, this 4000+ year old account gives a description which corresponds almost exactly to the conclusions of modern science? I don’t think the same could be said for other Mesopotamian creation narraives.). However, this interpretation does concern me a bit since it is often safest to take a text at its face value (I say safest because, as humans, we are so likely to twist the text to say whatever we want it to say). It could also be possible that a 6 24-hour day interpretation is the correct one, and that modern science has made some massive, massive mistake in interpreting all the physical evidence. That happens occassionally. But I am confident that facts about nature and the teaching of the Bible are in complete accord since it was God who created nature and God who inspired the Bible. In fact, that is why science is so wonderful. It is a way to learn about the glory of God through the things he created.
    But going back to earlier questions, why do I believe that God exists and that the Bible is authoritative? I have several reasons, but two main ones. First, those who trust in Jesus do have a subjective experience of a personal relationship with God. I agree that this evidence is hard to communicate to others, because by definition it is subjective. However, there is one way in which this claim is verifiable. God has promised numerous times to reveal himself to those who truly and earnestly seek him. So although I can’t convince you that I’ve had some subjective experience of God or even that it is a real one and not a delusion, I can simply invite you to see for yourself. Pick up a Bible and read it through thoughtfully. If it is God’s Word, then it is his primary means for communicating with humanity and demonstrating who he is.
    However, I don’t think that a subjective experience alone is sufficient, even for a Christian. If what we believe isn’t true, it doesn’t really matter what we feel. Also, subjective experiences, even strong ones, can be misleading.
    So second, I believe in God because the accounts of Jesus Christ’s life, death, and resurrection are historically credible. This may seem like an utter fallacy due to the press given to the DaVinci Code, the gnostic gospels, etc…, but it may surprise you that most non-Christian scholars believe in most of the major facts of Jesus life with the exception of the resurrection (which they reject not based on a historical, but a philosophical argument). I know that I am now a biased witness, but I only became a Christian in graduate school. In my pre-Christian days, as an undergraduate at Princeton, I took a course on the origins of Christianity known as the “Faith Buster” which used Bart Ehrman’s textbook (an atheist scholar whom Dawkins quotes repeatedly). At the time, I believed everything I was taught (after all, I wanted an A). But in retrospect, thinking critically about what I learned in the class, I realized that textual evidence actually made a very strong case for the resurrection of Jesus from the dead. If I were to try to convince a skepic of God’s existence, I would start with the Bible as a whole and with the biographies of Jesus in particular.
    Anyway, I’d love to discuss these issues at greater length. Perhaps our gracious host will start a thread on one of these topics?

  14. Posolxstvo Says:

    Hi Neil – I can’t respond to your entire comment for the same reasons stated above – lack of fresh knowledge of Dawkins and lack of probability acumen. What I think I can respond to however is the conclusions that you have reached, regarding the existence of god, and your reasons for reaching them.

    But before I begin, let me come right out and state – as far as this site and my blog goes, Posolxstvo is my real name. It is a transliteration of a Russian word, meaning “embassy.” The meaning of the word holds no keys to my identity. I have always just liked the sound of it. There are various reasons I prefer to maintain my anonymity in this discussion, none of which really matter to anyone besides me. The fact is, I wish to remain anonymous, and intend to do so.

    Okay. On to our discussion. In stating your first reason for believing in a personal god and the authority of the bible, you imply a couple of things. The first thing that you imply is that I, because I have not had the same subjective experience as you, have not truly and earnestly sought him. I take exception to this. This is not true. I have sought him. For years. I continue to seek him. I have read the bible from cover to cover (almost – Isaiah got a little hard for me to follow). I have looked for him in numerous additional texts. And the conclusions I have drawn are the results of this search. You also discredit Bart Ehrman’s conclusions based on your labeling of him as an atheist (BTW, he considers himself an agnostic, at least according to Wikipedia, which may or may not be true), while disregarding that he came by that position during his evangelical studies at Moody and Wheaton conducting textual criticism on the bible and realizing the numerous difficulties in calling the bible the word of god, as opposed to the word of man. In simpler terms – he came to his conclusion for much the same reasons I have come to mine.

    Your second stated reason for belief is the existence of historical studies that confirm the facts of Jesus’ life. My understanding is that there is very little sureness about the historical facts of Jesus’ life, other than that he probably existed. The fact that the gospels were written no less than fifty years following Jesus’ death diminishes their authority as historical fact, and increases the possibility that the stories contained therein were enhanced by human imagination. A theological whisper down the lane, as it were. While it may be heretical to do so, I can’t help but think of American tall tales, such as Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan when I hear the stories of the new testament. I don’t know that I have encountered corroborating stories from historical tomes other than the bible that mention anything having to do with miracles. I would likely enjoy reading some of the historical studies that you cite, and I would be interested in your interpretations of some of the others that paint Jesus in an alternative light.

    Now a question for you – I posited a notion that all of the works of the bible were written by men. Presumably inspired by god, these books were written by various men – often followers of the people for whom the books were named. Many more were written than were included in the official canon. What say you regarding the notion that these are the word of god? What say you regarding the claims of others to have been given the word of god, but which do not appear in any edition of the official christian bible, eg the dead sea scrolls? What of the book of mormon? While it is very easy to dismiss the book of mormon based on what we know about the life of John Smith, the same axe that one uses to dismiss mormon should also be applied to the books of the christian bible. Who wrote them? What was their purpose in writing them? When the christian bible was compiled, who decided what books to include? Who decided what to exclude? What was their barometer for making these determinations? How did they know what was the word of god and what was not?

    These are important questions, as I think that they are at the heart of whatever criticism I have of the authority of the bible. Were they divinely inspired, or were they simply trying to further their own goals and beliefs? Having seen authority figures practice the art of self-delusion, and having seen them push their self-delusions on others, and having seen the general willingness of the teeming masses to accept someone else’s conclusions rather than going through the effort of forming their own, I am hard-pressed to believe that the folks involved at the Council of Nicea were acting in a manner completely devoid of self-interest.

    If there was ever a time machine invented, I can assure you that I would make every effort to go back to both 30 or so CE and 325 CE. Granted, at my age, I don’t know that I could pick up the languages…

  15. Neil Says:

    Posolxstvo,
    I’m sorry; I didn’t mean to imply that you specifically haven’t earnestly sought God or read the Bible. I was making a more general statement about how an agnostic could attempt to verify biblical claims about God. However, I would stand behind my original statement simply because of God’s promises in the Bible that “He who seeks finds and to him who knocks the door will be opened”. But it seems like you have a lot of intellectual doubts about the veracity of the Bible. In that case, I think it’s much more important to try and answer them first rather than seeking some kind of subjective experience. Like I said, what’s the use of subjective experiences if it’s all rubbish? Do you know any Christians personally? It might be useful to ask them some of the specific questions that you have about the Bible. I remember reading it cover to cover in high school and not getting much out of it at all.
    I also was not implying that Ehrman’s conclusions were wrong because he is an agnostic. Actually, it was exactly the opposite. I am even more convinced of the historicity of the resurrection because the very historical tools used and recommended by Ehrman (as an agnostic) so forcefully argue in favor of the resurrection.
    This is a fantastic topic though. I’ll start doing some research so that I can try to address all of these questions adequately. In the meantime, I highly highly recommend checking out the follow book, which is availble free online:
    http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm
    I suspect that it may answer many of your questions. Bruce was a Greek scholar from the University of Manchester and expert on the Biblical manuscripts.
    Just to take a census, I’m curious what the main arguments for the non-historicty of the New Testament are. Here are a few that I’ve heard. If you can think of any others, let me know so that I can think about them:
    1. The length of time between the life of Jesus and the writing of the gospels: aren’t these just legends? Isn’t this like the game of telephone?
    2. The gullibility of ancient people: weren’t ancient people very unsophisticated when it came to miracles? Didn’t they accept facts very uncritically?
    3. The reliability of the writers: Didn’t the authors just make things up to encourage people to become Christian?
    4. The reliability of manuscript copying: aren’t all the manuscripts different? Didn’t the copyists make lots of mistakes?
    5. The selection of documents: didn’t the church just pick the documents that supported its cause and throw out the rest?
    -Neil

  16. ccdguy Says:

    Just re-read that part of the God Delusion (for paperback readers, the argument summary is on page 188). It certainly appears that Dawkins is making an argument that “the factual premise of religion, The God Hypothesis, is untenable”. You may be correct that claiming the knowledge of how likely A god is (versus how likely a specific God is, say the god of the Bible, for instance) takes it one step too far.

    I’m glad, though, that you agree with Posolxstvo, that it does not follow that a God exists. What I don’t understand is the LEAP that you must have to make, which takes you from “god is theoretically possible” to believing in the god of the Bible, which is certainly less likely that just A god.

    The programmer point you make is true. God could have programmed his miracles into the world. But then, free will, logically, is an absolute sham, no?

    I definitely see that Jesus’s supposed quotes, written at least 50 years after his life, were presented in parables and used metaphor often. I don’t necessarily think that these quotes are accurate or that they tell a consistent story, though, carpenter or not.

    Let’s address Genesis for a moment. Calling what we read there ‘careful structure’ is quite a leap, first of all. Also, what do you mean when you say that this 4000 year old account is “almost exactly to the conclusions of modern science”? You couldn’t mean that, could you? The confidence you describe regarding “facts about nature and the teaching of the Bible” being in complete accord, is based on a presupposition that THE God created both, right? At least, that’s what you seem to say. I think this might be an example of seeing what you want to see, because of a pre-determined faith/belief. One of the many problems that religious belief poses to rational discourse.

    And at the same time, you’re saying you don’t know if it was done in 6 days or in 13.7 billion years. Science tells us that there is NO reason to suppose that the Earth (and implied Universe) took form in 6 days and literally BILLIONS of reasons to think it all took form over roughly 13.7 billion years. So, if any vague interpretation concerns you, as you say, and applying metaphor leaves the Bible open to personal interpretation, then why don’t you think the world was created in 6 days? It’s right there in the Bible. Do you THINK that science has made one of these massive, massive mistakes that you talk about? Is that your theory? Or do you think science has this one pretty much in the bag? I just can’t understand why some things which are clearly NOT spoken metaphorically (6 days is 6 days. Everyone knows what a day is) are molded into a metaphor, but so many other things are off limits t interpretation. Wouldn’t it be much more logical if we just read the 6 days as a statement of ignorance by WHOEVER wrote that stuff down? Isn’t THAT the logical implication? That someone, whose life was (by our standards) ravaged by their basic understanding of EVERYTHING, lied about something he had no business preaching about? And from this, wouldn’t we move towards a skeptical approach to Bible study in general? This is what scientists and historians have done for years, and to date, the physical claims in the Bible have been largely discredited by science as factual, and the historical claims have at LEAST been shown to be FULL of errors and contradictions (but not wholely false, which is unsurprising, too).

    The idea that science is wonderful because it is a way to learn about the glory of God through the things he created is another example of a presupposition. You can’t learn about God through studying science, except to find that every religious God in history has had attached to him/her, claims about the natural world that haven’t come close to anything resembling a scientific facts. I would change that sentence to, “Science is so wonderful because it’s a way to learn about everything in Nature.” Science says NOTHING about god, or his glory.

    Moving on to your first reason given for believing in god and the Bible as his authoritative book. Yes, those who trust in Jesus have a subjective experience of a personal relationship with god. So do Swedenborgians, Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, etc. That you think your god has a relationship with you is terribly unsurprising to me. Believe me when I tell you that when I still believed in God, I had plenty of experiences that I attributed to him. I’ve read the Bible more than once, and I’ve read many parts of it hundreds of times. Such was my life as the “son of a preacher man”. In no way is my belief in your god a reflection of my ignorance on the biblical account of him, or a reflection of my lacking attempts at connecting, subjectively, with him. I’ve been there, just like many of the other atheists/agnostics I know.

    You are correct in saying that if what we believe ISN’T true, it doesn’t really matter what we feel. Good. This is a start, and that recognizes what I just wrote, that misinterpretations, by your standards OR mine, must abound..

    Now combine this with your 2nd reason, on which I must disagree. Most of the major facts (which do you mean?) about Jesus’s life are NOT agreed upon, nor are the stories about John the Baptist, shepherds, moving stars, Herod, the debates he had as a 12 year old, the virgin birth, the census, or, wait for it, ANYTHING found in the Bible about the man named Jesus that claims knowledge about his life before the age of approximately 30, when people started to notice his odd behavior. Even after the age of 30, the story telling is QUITE contradictory, and follows specific patterns that other religious stories have in the past. I think I’ll start a thread on the historical accuracy of the Bible soon. In the meantime, I’d recommend reading The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. It’s pretty comprehensive.

    CCD,

    Ben

  17. Neil Says:

    Ben (and also Thor further down),
    Regarding my statement about Genesis 1 corresponding “almost exactly to the conclusions of modern science”, you are absolutely right. I was trying to score cheap rhetorical points and I apologize. After looking through Genesis 1 and 2 again, I think that it really is a plausible explanation to say that Genesis 1 is not trying to set a particular chronology or duration of the creation account. I agree that we do have to be careful not to twist the text to say whatever we want it to. But I think we can look closely at the text to see if we’re missing the point. For instance, Genesis 2:4 in summarizing the whole creation account says: “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.” That word “day” is the same word used all through Genesis 1 and it is a Hebrew word that can mean a 24 day or a figurative day, like “the day of battle”. Also, in Genesis 2:5 it states that when God made man, there wasn’t yet any vegetation on the earth (or “land”). But in Genesis 1, man and woman are made on Day 6 while all the vegetation is made on Day 3. Again, what’s going on? I think – though I could be wrong- that this is a clue that the author means us to take Genesis 1 as a figurative (poetical?) account of creation and does not expect us to draw conclusions about the means or duration that God used to accomplish his purposes. This is certainly the impression that many Christian early commentators (prior to 400AD) had, well before there was any scientific evidence one way or another.
    With regard to “seeing what you want to see” with regard to evidence, I agree. Our worldview certainly biases our interpretation of the evidence, which is why we need to be so careful in interpreting evidence. When it comes to evidence that we believe supports our worldview, we should be careful to hold it up to special scrutiny. But this argument cuts both ways. Atheism and agnosticism are also worldviews which color our interpretation of evidence. This is the point I was making with respect to Dawkins’ argument about the evidence of the physical constants. His worldview leads him to hope for an explanation of physics despite having no hard evidence.
    Thor, you made a point in your first response that’s relevant to this discussion. You said that there have been many unexplained historical occurences that have been attributed to the supernatural. “Many of these phenomena are still unexplained. But ALL the ones that HAVE been explained have turned out to have a scientifically measurable/observable mechanism behind them. OVER and OVER and OVER this has been the answer (when one has been found).” Let’s stop here for second. What do we mean when we say we have an explanation for something? We usually mean that we can explain it using naturalistic means. Take an example like the origin of life. Right now, an agnostic would say that it is an unexplained phenomena. A Christian would answer: I have an explanation – God created life. If you object, “that’s not an explanation”, then it is clear that what you are looking for is a naturalistic explanation. In that case, the statement that “all the previously unexplained phenomena that have eventually been explained have had a scientific explanation” is a tautology. All you’re really saying is: “all the phenomena that have a scientific explanation have a scientific explanation.” Again, when it comes to the things we can’t explain (the origin of life, the fundamental physical constants), our worldview shows through the most clearly. A materialist says: I’m sure we’ll come up with naturalistic explanations for these. Why? Because all the other unexplained phenomena have had a naturalistic explanation. What about the ones that haven’t had a naturalistic explanation? Well, I’m sure we’ll find a naturalistic explanation for those too.
    Again, I’m not claiming that a Christian worldview doesn’t influence your thinking. It certainlu does! I’m just pointing out that all worldviews (atheism, agnosticism, deism, theism, pantheism) influence your thinking.
    Anyway, I’m looking forward to discussing the New Testament.
    -Neil

  18. Thor Odhner Says:

    Neil…

    A couple of sentences after the portion of my response you quoted, I said, “Perhaps many of the unexplained questions are unexplained BECAUSE they have supernatural causes… but we’ve got NO experience with definitively finding this to be the case…”

    I’m very aware that limiting the scope of “explanations” to scientific ones and then claiming that nothing has ever been “explained” except by science would not be making much of a point… here’s where I see the difference:

    You are a Christian, and you believe the God hypothesis explains some things science can’t. I look at those claims and say that without first ASSUMING the God hypothesis, nothing’s pointing me in that direction. MANY, MANY people concur with me that there’s nothing pointing to the God hypothesis. And the more specific your God hypothesis is, the fewer people will accept that it follows from anything.

    By contrast, if I say that an apple that just fell off a tree did so because of gravity, you accept that. And so does essentially everyone on earth who wouldn’t be described as ‘deluded’ by pretty much everyone else.

    Logical, scientific, natural explanations (where they are claimed/found) are widely accepted by all people. God explanations are not (less and less so to the degree that they make specific claims). Sure… you can state that both require a worldview or an element of faith, but I still think you need to explain why explanations based on science/nature/logic are so universally accepted while explanations based on God theory are so easily deniable and don’t seem to just “follow” from experience.

    To say that there is “probably” a scientific, logical explanation for everything we observe is certainly a guess. It is certainly a worldview. It certainly is deniable. But it at least relies on areas of thought that are universally believed to hold tangible answers to millions of questions (uncovered over time as our knowledge has grown) we’ve had about ourselves and our environment.

    If you want to claim that putting your faith in science is every bit as suspect as putting your faith in God, you need to claim that science is just as deniable as God, and I would suggest that you and essentially everybody else would be far less willing to abandon science/logic than the VAST MAJORITY of people are to deny (emphatically) any *specific* God hypothesis. Now… if we speak about God in the most abstract way possible… “something outside of or beyond the physical plane” then we do get quite a large number of proponents … but still nowhere near the universal respect and certainty that people put in science and logic.

    I think it’s very worthwhile to contemplate why that is.

  19. Neil Says:

    Thor,
    When I spoke of making a choice about what we put our faith in, I was thinking about that choice at a worldview level. For instance, my worldview can either be materialistic (I believe that absolutely everything can be explained by natural laws) or it can be theistic (I believe that everything proceeds from God, who created the natural laws but is sovereign over them). These choices of worldviews are not derived rigorously from evidence; they enter our thinking as assumptions and color the way we view the evidence. Saying “science tells me this” is a statement that a Christian or an atheist or a pantheist can make.
    For instance, take the evidence of the fundamental constants. Both an atheist and a Christian would agree that these constants all line up in a way that permits life to exist in our universe and that this coincidence cannot be currently explained by any natural laws. There is no disagreement at all with regards to the evidence. However, a materialist says: “I believe that we will eventually come up with a naturalistic explanation for this extraordinary coincidence.” A Christian says: “I believe this is further evidence that a naturalistic explanation is very unlikely.” Do either of those statements follow logically (that is, inescapably) from the evidence? Not at all. In other words, it’s not a choice of putting my faith in God versus putting my faith in science. Science or reason or historical study or philosophy are not not worldviews; they are merely uncover the evidence. How I interpret, how I give weight to, and how I extrapolate from what science or reason tells me is where my worldview comes in.
    -Neil

  20. CE Says:

    Neil,
    This is a bit behind your original posts, but your interpretation of the literary style of Genesis 1, 2 is done with attention to one word, and not to the text, or indeed, the book as a whole (the whole being a historical account). While I appreciate much of what you wrote, the time issue has not textually been addressed thoroughly. I wish I had the time to do so, but I only have a few moments to briefly outline some comments.

    As a major point of your discussion, as most old earth creationists do, you assume that ‘day’ is not a clear word. However, there are textual clues to how one reads the word. When the word ‘day’ is used to refer to a time period, one notes that it is always modified by a prepositional phrase like, “in the” or by “of”. As an example in Gen.2:4, “in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens”. Here we have a signal that day refers to some period by the phrase ‘in the’. This make clear the contextual meaning. Contrast that with the use of the word ‘day’ in the creation account: “There was evening and there was morning, one day”, “there was…a second day”, there was… a third day”. This is repeated seven times. These are definitive statements. Not only does one notice the definitive “there was”, but it is followed by two explanations: evening and morning, that which they defined a day by!, and enumeration, one, second, third, etc. Thus we see that ‘day’ is defined in its context the first time it is used, but its interpretation is restricted to a literal meaning by the enumeration of the days (first, second, etc) , and by the given boundaries (evening, morning).
    Also, Genesis 1 is a time-line account, while Genesis 2 is a different perspective based on the creation of man.

    There are also other biblical references to the time period of creation. Exodus 20:11, “For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day;” and Exodus 31:17, “for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day He ceased from labor, and was refreshed.” These texts were used by Moses to explain to the people that their week is patterned after creation week. Our weeks, as well as nature on which weeks, months, years are based, are patterning after the original Creation week. Since the point is for man to understand ‘days’, not for God, then these are to be understood as man understands six days.
    Heb. 4:3 says his works were finished from the foundation of the world. If this were true, then he would not have created the heavens and earth, a few billion years later, created the fish and birds, few million later created the animals, and a few million later people.
    Beyond this we see statements made by Jesus indicating that he understands time for all creation to be set in this creation week recorded in Genesis. Mark 10:6 shows us that He understands men and women to be in existence since the approximate beginning of the cosmos, “from the beginning, he made them male and female”. If man were created on the sixth day of the universe’s existence this is at the beginning. However, if the universe were created billions of years ago and human life thousands of years ago, in perspective this would more accurately be “at the end of creation” not at all close to the ‘beginning’.
    Or Romans 1:20 says that what is known about God has been shown to them and God’s attributes and works have been clearly perceived since the creation of the cosmos, so they are without excuse. As mentioned before Hebrews say his works were finished from the foundation of the cosmos. The same argument applies here.

    Other major issues that have to do with creation time are primarily, understanding death and the meaning of resurrection, and also the flood. As for sin and death, if for millions of years death was occurring, then God views death as a ‘good’ thing. Therefore, the fact that Jesus died to overcome death is meaningless, since he would have wanted death merely to serve his creative purposes. On the contrary, we are to understand Jesus’ victory over death to be complete and applies to all creation, which will be restored. Death is a consequence of sin, not something which God intended for all that had the breathe of life. Believing in the new creation and a literal resurrection required understanding that God does away with death and it was not a part of his ‘good’ creation.

    Another major biblical issue is the Genesis Flood. Either you believe it to be global and destroyed all that had the breathe of life, save a few, or it was local, which really wouldn’t have meant much. Note the words of the text in Genesis 6-7: “destroy all life under the heavens”, “every creature with the breathe of life”, “everything will perish”, “wipe from the earth every creature I have made”, “all flesh that moved perished–birds, cattle, everything, and all mankind”, “all that was on the dry land”, “all who had the breathe of life died”, “he blotted out every living thing on the face of the earth”–”from man to animals”, “and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.” Quite a point is being made and is repeated over and over how total it was.
    There is also New Testament support, for example 2 Peter 3:6, “by these waters also the world at that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire.” If only locally the flood destroyed, then it would seem that only the Roman Empire is going to be destroyed in the fire and have an end time. One could extend this local idea to Jesus, who would then be only a local savior. In Genesis 8:21 there is a promise to never again destroy every living thing (this would be false if it only meant local flood). Again in Genesis 9, “I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth.” In describing the magnitude of the flood waters, it says
    “all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered”. The Hebrew word here is ‘har’ meaning, mountain, higher than a hill. The word for hill would have been ‘gibah’. Not only that, but it is modified by the adjective ‘high’. Genesis 8:4-5 goes on to say the ark “rested in the mountains of Ararat, and the tops of the mountains were visible.”

    Finally, you mentioned the early church father’s interpretation of the days. There are a few things to understand. One is that even when church fathers interpret things allegorically that doesn’t mean that they don’t view things as literal history also. They tended to use four levels of meaning applied to the Bible. Secondly, they also had their preconceived notions, a main one being that they would talk about what is “proper” for God to do. They also were specifically writing against “accomodating secular opinion” that the world was many thousands of years old. If you said these church fathers interpreted creation as “long periods of time”, that is false. Augustine and Clement actually talked about them as INSTANTANEOUS because they thought it was more fitting for it to happen all at once and didn’t think God would need 6 whole days. Even shows Augustine’s work to be titled,”The Literal Interpretation of Genesis” and The City of God specifically states the belief in a 6000 year old earth and a global flood. The writings of Theophilus of Antioch (115-181) similarly show this was understood as a short period of time, “All the years from the creation of the world amount to a total of 5698 years, and the odd months and days.” (THEOPHILUS TO AUTOLYCUS. BOOK III p. 120)
    Basil of Caesarea argued for the literal sense of Scripture against the distortions of allegory. Basil said twenty-four hours fill up the space of one day. Even Ambrose of Milan (330–397), mentor of Augustine, believed each day consisted of twenty-four hours, including both day and night. In addition to this, the Fathers believed that the earth was less than 6,000 years old. Medieval theologians, until later years, followed Augustine. They viewed creation as instantaneous, and the six days as a literary framework. An example is Anselm of Canterbury. Bede believed creation had occurred instantaneously but was formed over six 24-hour days. Andrew of St. Victor interpreted Genesis 1 literally. The medieval church believed that creation was sudden, not gradual, and occurred fewer than 6,000 years in the past. As interpreters began returning to a literal reading of Scripture, they began restoring the literal view of the days of creation.

    I am sorry if I have not taken the time to make this entirely clear, but I would hope you can reflect on it in your pursuit of understanding the gospel.
    Your work in explaining the historicity and inerrancy of the Bible to people is very valuable.

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