In “The Return of Religion”, (which you can find on www.edge.org) Roger Scrutton attempts, poorly, to paint Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett and Christopher Hitchens (The Four Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse as they are sometimes called) as evangelical, untidy, strident and even VIOLENT advocates for atheism. He even goes so far as to suggest that they promote a type of blind faith in atheism, which limits our questioning nature and keeps us from defining our humanity accurately.
Where he gets off attacking these gentlemen as VIOLENT, even in vocabulary, I’ll never know. But worse, Scrutton’s entire essay provides what seems to be an attempted defense of the claims that religion makes, and the process of ignorance by which we humans are comforted, all the while scolding Dawkins, et al, for not having alternative, all-encompassing answers.
The Four Horsemen are just the tip of the iceberg, of course, just a few among thousands of what Scrutton calls Evangelical Atheists, but what I call, much more appropriately, Fundamentalist Evangelical Agnostics. For that is what The Four Horsemen are… agnostic. They don’t THINK there is a God, and they also know they cannot prove that there ISN’T a God. They have all stated, clearly, that they recognize this, and so their ‘atheism’ is only in practice (just as you and I are atheists, in practice, when it comes to Zeus). What they DO claim is that the probability, based on evidence, that there is a personal, religious God that fits any religious definition, is so vanishingly small, that they can confidently attack the specific fact claims about the nature of God & the Universe that are being made by religions of all 6,000+ different sects (who happen to be worshipping some cross-pollinated version of a mythical Sun God).
The reason opponents of religion (like the Four) promote the practical side of Atheism, is that for some reason (most likely a complete and total misunderstanding of the word Agnostic), religious folks tend to just brush agnostics off as ‘future converts who just need more time’ or ‘no real threat to the salvation of their children’ or ‘not REAL unbelievers’, much in the same way they misunderstand what the word Theory means, in “The Theory of Evolution”. Many people tend to think that Agnostics simply say, “I don’t know” and then move on with their lives. But what many an agnostic REALLY says, is ‘I don’t know, and NEITHER DO YOU.” Promoting Atheism in practice, then, does not make Dawkins & Co. any less agnostic. They are simply emphasizing the fact that all Theists in the world are claiming things that they, by every reasonable calculation, CANNOT and DO NOT know!
Atheism, you see, can be defined as the simple absence of belief in deities. It is that word, Belief, that most troubles your average fundamentalist agnostic. Beliefs are counter-productive and distract from the purpose of finding out what is true. And so, the Four Horsemen are simply taking a stance against theistic BELIEFS, as a part of a greater itch to eradicate blind beliefs of all kinds.
Scrutton, unfortunately, makes the common mistake of saying that The 4 take away important questions, and by doing so, limit the answers we can come up with. This is patently false. These fundamentalist agnostics simply don’t want ‘holy’ people to ‘provide’ arbitrary religious answers in the place of actual data or scientific theory. That’s it. Their approach takes away no questions, and only limits the answers, in that it requires any “answer” to have accompanying evidence.
In calling Dawkins, et al, ‘strident’ he compliments them. A loud, forceful and persistent (the definition of strident) voice in the defense of reason and in objection to the irrational claims that have, over centuries, proven to lead to unnecessary death, destruction, ignorance and the handicapping of critical inquiry is EXACTLY what we need. What we don’t need are more blind sheep that aren’t creative enough to see the possibilities for transcendent experiences outside the framework of our present day religious insanity. Besides, a critic can be strident and caring at the same time, can he not?
Scrutton also asserts that , “All faiths, to the atheists, have remained in the condition of Islam today: rooted in dogmas that cannot be safely questioned. Believing this, they work themselves into a lather of vituperation against ordinary believers, including those believers who have come to religion in search of an instrument of peace, and who regard their faith as an exhortation to love their neighbour, even their belligerent atheist neighbour, as themselves.”
In saying this, he misses the point. It’s not always a matter of safety. It’s a matter of truth. Not all religions are an immediate physical danger to humanity, but to the degree that any religion helps create a climate that is receptive to subjective opinions being presented as objective truths, that religion is creating a buffer between critical thought, and the extreme fundamentalists that HOPE to do harm by carrying out the word of their God. While I certainly do not fault people for searching out ways to find peace & love, I do think that even the religious moderates have missed the target, and I think that there is no fault in persistently pointing this out to them. After all, if it is true love & peace that moderate religious folks seek, they should be easily convinced that ANY significant level of blind faith is no avenue to their ends. Unfortunately, these same moderates are NOT easily convinced. They are steadfast in their blindness. And that is the reason for the increase in volume & persistence of the message extolled by Dawkins, Harris & company.
He admits that the existence of the universe, the galaxy, the planet, the primordial soup, the gene and the human experience raise questions that should be solved by discovering the laws of motion that govern the observable changes at every level of the physical world. Further, he admits that any mystery we are confronted with results from our partial knowledge of the subject, and can only be solved by further knowledge of the same kind – the knowledge that we call science. He goes on to state that only ignorance would cause us to deny this general picture of things, and says that our four fundamentalist agnostics (he calls them evangelical atheists) assume that religion must deny this general picture, and therefore must, at some level, commit itself to the propagation of ignorance or at any rate the prevention of knowledge. All of this. All of it… is RIGHT ON.
But he doesn’t stop there. Unfortunately Scrutton goes on to say that all of his religious acquaintances accept this general picture, but don’t regard it as posing the remotest difficulty for their faith (which I find hard to believe). In fact, he blames our Agnostic Four, for simply pointing out that there are TONS of things we simply don’t know. Apparently, he thinks it’s a good thing that religion provides, as Scrutton says, “Something that removes the paradox of an entirely law-governed world, open to consciousness, that is nevertheless without an explanation: that just is, for no reason at all.” Well, yes, religions DO offer ideas about this paradox. Unfortunately, and this is important, religions don’t present these ideas as THEORIES. They take subjective opinions and present them as objective facts. In other words, what religions offer are lies, to fill the gaps in our understanding.
Moreover, Scrutton says that Dawkins & Co. , “are subliminally aware that their abdication in the face of science does not make the universe more intelligible, nor does it provide an alternative answer to our metaphysical enquiries.”
Well, he’s wrong that science does not make the universe more intelligible, but what, you may be asking yourself, is an alternative answer? Seriously?! What is the definition of an alternative answer? What a ridiculous premise, that we should be offering alternative answers simply because the “answers” provided by an ill-equiped forum (religion) turned out to be false. Why can’t we just say, “There is no evidence that there is a God.” Why do we have to fill people with falsity so that they can sleep at night? Shouldn’t humanity just get used to saying, “I don’t know” and then endeavor to correct our ignorance, and not simply provide fake answers to our biggest questions? Isn’t THAT the most humble realization of our finite nature that exists?
He then goes on to say that because these brave men don’t offer this equally fake ‘alternative answer’, it simply brings inquiry to a stop, which is, again, patently false. Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens want ALL questions to be asked. They want ALL answers to be attained. It is a bogus claim, therefore, that they want anything less than the truth through inquiry. Wanting to end religious dogma is very different than wanting to end inquiry. The reason this is true, is that religion is NOT inquiry. It’s subjective opinion being presented as objective fact. Mr. Scrutton must not recognize that the most enquiring minds in the world are likely to be atheist leaning agnostics, not Baptists. And the reason? Because the intelligent folks out there cannot bring themselves to make stuff up, or pretend to believe things that, from all accounts, are made up.
As Scrutton says, “The thought of consciousness gives rise to peculiar metaphysical anxieties, which we try to allay with images of the soul, the mind, the self, the ‘subject of consciousness’, the inner entity that thinks and sees and feels and which is the real me inside. But these traditional ‘solutions’ merely duplicate the problem. We cast no light on the consciousness of a human being simply by re-describing it as the consciousness of some inner homunculus – be it a soul, a mind or a self. On the contrary, by placing that homunculus in some private, inaccessible and possibly immaterial realm, we merely compound the mystery.” He argues that it is this mystery which brings people back to religion.
“People continue to look for the places where they can stand, as it were, at the window of our empirical world and gaze out towards the transcendental.” And I support this. GO FOR IT! To look at the unknown with wonder is no crime. In fact, it may be the most important thing we do, as long as we admit we’re are looking at the unknown, and not claiming to know it’s nature… and I think Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens would agree with me. I don’t think they are fighting against some nebulous, impersonal, non-dogmatic, doctrine-free set of pseudo-transcendental personal experiences.
These experiences of looking towards the transcendental are quite different than making Theist claims about the nature of God. This is what Religions do everyday. Social endorsement and theological infrastructure, though comforting to us as social beings, mean next to nothing if they represent something that is false.
Religion is the problem, and this is where people fail; by turning to religion as a comfort to their awareness of the incomprehendable nature of Universe. Religions do NOT satisfy our need for answers. Feeding today’s Religions to the true seekers, is like feeding Iceberg Lettuce to the starving. Sure it’s SOMETHING, but all you’re really getting is Vitamin K and some water. This isn’t nutrition. Where’s the meat? Where’s the fruit? Where’s the bread? Where’s the truth? People don’t HAVE to have these all-encompassing answers. They just WANT them. People come back to religion because they aren’t comfortable not knowing. I’m not saying it’s surprising, I’m just saying it’s an outdated practice and because we can see the harm in this process, I argue that religious beliefs are not useful anymore.
You see, real answers ARE scientific, thoughtful, evidence based, answers. If an ‘answer’ doesn’t qualify as a knowable fact, then it’s a theory, hypothesis, hunch, etc. Religion offers claims. Conjecture. Smoke & mirrors. Science offers a competitive marketplace of ideas. All the best ideas win. You tell me, Roger, who is the truly reasonable group? Life is a beautiful and wonderous thing. Let’s find out more about it, and stop stunting the process of finding things out, by making or defending aggregiously inaccurate claims about the nature of reality, especially when those claims are force-fed to the innoncents.
In other words, let’s be reasonable. If God is not dead, it’s going to be the thinkers that clue us in. Not the believers. Right?
CCD,
Ben
August 1, 2008 at 7:46 am |
Absolutely brilliant Ben. I am anxiously waiting, with a very open mind, for the intelligent response from the other camp. If I could think of something to contribute here, I would, but that was pretty thorough. I think you’ve addressed the core of the issue here, and I only wish that Roger Scrutton read your blog because I would really want to hear his response. Unfortunately, he probably doesn’t. So in his absence, I hope somebody else who agrees with him will step up to the plate.
August 1, 2008 at 9:26 am |
Well, I’m not ‘the other camp’ by any stretch, as you know well.
That said, I’m finding myself reacting in that direction.
There are two concepts that are being confounded here, and the more I study this conversation, wherever it’s happening around the world, the more I think this is an primary factor in why this tends to be such a maddening subject, no matter how often it’s debated.
Concept 1: Realms of awareness and sensory interpretation that are not rationally based – Hope, fear, love, aesthetics, wonder, etc. – are decidedly NOT reasonable. For this reason, many people (highly analytical people in particular) react very strongly and negatively to any discussion from or about these types of awareness that the perceive to be quantifiable, rational statements. I’m not prepared to put blame for this squarely in either court — many times, people do tread into the realm of analysis when discussing aesthetics, and they start speaking FROM reason about that which is NOT reasonable. On the other hand, humans in general, and analytical ones especially, LISTEN in an analytical way. Our language constructs and our language processing centers are primarily operating on logic and analysis. So that’s how we interpret communication, whether it was intended that way or not. The very process of definition is an analytical one, and it is a necessary step in communication.
Concept 2: We are capable of experiencing everything there is to experience by means of a rational/analytic process. This concept is patently false. It’s totally fine to criticize aesthetic awareness and experience (unfortunately communicated in a too-analytical way) as being unreasonable. But aesthetic awareness does not – to any degree – derive its value from its reasonableness. That’s not its purpose.
There’s a very real, important thing happening in this discussion involving distinguishing religion as only having aesthetic value and not rational value – requesting that religious (or more broadly aesthetic) awareness not be communicated in the guise of rationality… but the problem is very clear: it’s impossible to communicate it outside of our analytical process.
What I don’t think is anybody’s direct intention, but what often happens through carelessness or lack of distinction, is that implications arise that 1) analysis is the only valuable type of awareness; and 2) aesthetic awareness SHOULD be able to withstand analytical definition.
I’m just finishing “Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” by Robert Pirsig, and it was EXACTLY the book I needed to read, given my recent mode/mission of ultra-analytical truth seeking I’ve been so completely absorbed in. There are far too many VERY interesting distinctions made in this book to sum up, but if I had to try to summarize the theme of the book, I would call it an attempt to reconcile the conflicting realms of aesthetic awareness and analytical awareness by showing that they don’t overlap at all, that some things cannot SURVIVE the process of definition intact, and that it may be impossible to operate in both realms simultaneously. I HIGHLY recommend it to anyone who is interested in the subject of this blog, because it cuts to the heart of the whole thing. Reader beware, though: it’s intentionally written in a non-analytical framework… it circles around ideas and then runs away, then returns from another angle, and then takes a break, etc. This is, again, to avoid the danger of trying to define and analyze that which is destroyed through analysis and definition. If you’re expecting an analytical text, the pacing might throw you out of your comfort zone.
Cheers,
Thor
August 1, 2008 at 10:08 am |
This probably won’t be eloquent, but here’s one reaction.
There are things that are real that science can’t measure. Take numbers, for example…what is the number 3? We know it is made up of one and one and one. It’s also more than 2 and less than 4. None of that tells us anything concrete. Numbers, by themselves, stand outside of scientific reality – they can’t be measured, weighed or tested. They are essentially a concept that we have all experienced as true, even though we can’t measure or accurately define them. We can point to a million examples that have conformed to this concept, but the numbers themselves stand outside of physical reality.
Could it be that God, or religion, or whatever supernatural thing that is being denied holds similar characteristics. Millions of people have billions of examples that show Him to be real, but He can’t be measured? Perhaps He exists outside of the physical realm that science currently dominates and understands?
August 1, 2008 at 11:42 am |
Quick response to Kevin. I hear what you’re saying, and yes, it could be that God or whatever possible unknown thing that’s out there, exists outside the physical realm, but isn’t the implication then, that by interacting with this ‘thing’, we too transcend the ‘physical’? This is a mighty bold claim. How is this achieved?
And again, like I said in my response, people can stand at the window of our empirical world and stare out to the transcendental all they want. I don’t hold that against anyone. The search into the unknown, for intuitive, contemplative experiences is an excellent journey indeed. I just don’t see how we can claim ANYTHING about the nature of God, except, then, from our personal experiences.
This is important. Religions do NOT base themselves on personal experience. Dogma, doctrine, each version of the nature & will of God… these things are static. They remain constant. The transcendent & intuitive experiences that we all have are welcomed, but to take these experiences and align yourself with some religion seems backwards. Religions offer nothing in the form of truth. Again, I do NOT claim there is no God. I could not possibly know this. I only claim that Religions are wrong, backwards, inconsistent with reality, and DEFINITELY not open to individual transcendent quests. Religions offer a path to salvation. Your personal truth, or personal relationship with God (or the Universe, or whatever) is often fine with them, as long as it is consistent with their version of the Nature of God. If not… then God have mercy on your soul. (whatever THAT is…)
August 1, 2008 at 11:57 am |
KJ,
While I think question “where and in what sense to concepts exist” is a fascinating and worthwhile question, I definitely put it in a very different category than God, because of how it is that people come to experience it as real. You don’t see a lot of “number 3 agnostics” out there. Why not? I can’t give you a hard and fast answer to that question, but I think the inadequacy of that parallel can be partially understood by trying to answer it.
First of all, I would say that it’s the existence of “spiritual/metaphysical inquiry” that is more universally experienced than any specific answers to spiritual questions. “There is a God” can be anywhere from true to false to meaningless, depending on what you mean when you say it. So what exactly are you claiming that people just experience as true, in the same way they do “the number 3″?
While someone might like to disagree with me, I would argue that religion, even if we say we’re talking about the unlikely case in which someone came up with it on their own, rather than being taught it, is not something that people tend to experience directly… rather it is experienced in attempt to answer certain uncertainties which people DO tend to experience naturally.
Three is a certainty (not in a sense that it can’t be debated, but in the sense that things directly feed ‘the experience of three’ into our senses. ‘Three’ is what we call that experience pattern. We had to name it because it WAS there.) Some people will argue that God is also a name given to a widely recognized experience pattern, but I propose that it’s a name given to an answer we create to fill a void. Whatever mechanism is sending us all “three” information is frustratingly not sending “why you are here” information, so we create a concept to deal with that deafening silence and call it God.
August 1, 2008 at 12:20 pm |
Quick response to Thor. I find your post a bit on the “well, we just can’t really know stuff’ side of things, which is fine I guess. I think you are aware, but I want to make clear to everyone else, that I certainly don’t align with Concept #2. It IS impossible to escape our means of communicating rationally, but to let religion off the hook by effectively saying, “You can’t hold aesthetic things like the religious experience to the analytical framework we see through” is damaging (if that’s what you’re saying). Religion doesn’t claim to be an aesthetic awareness. Religions aren’t transcendent personal experiences. That’s why each has dogma, rules, regulations, doctrine and political structures. It’s not like they’re doing their darnedest to keep it to ‘aesthetics’. My entire argument is, if you want to say that you have some intuitive feeling about the nature of things, fine… do your ABSOLUTE best to communicate THAT (even within the confines of our language systems, which are rational). Don’t let your aesthetic feelings become dogma, and don’t stand for any organization that tries to do this for you.
I don’t think analytical awareness is necessarily the only valuable type of awareness, and I don’t think that aesthetic awareness should necessarily be able to withstand analysis. Which is why, when someone says they ‘just know’ there’s a God, I will take them to task on every analytical thing I can think of… and if, in the end, they still, for some unknown reason, still KNOW there’s a God ‘just because’, there’s really no going any further with that person. And that’s fine, I guess. But when they start then telling me about God, and the nature of God, and anthropomorphizing God, and assigning God to a set of books which were written by men…. that’s when we’ll have a problem.
And that’s religion.
Also, the idea that hope, fear, love, wonder, etc. are decidedly NOT reasonable doesn’t necessarily sit well with me. I mean, I get what you’re after, but these experiences are decidedly physical experiences. We may not really understand these things very well, just like we don’t understand WHY we like a peice of art. We just do! But does that automatically exclude this set of experiences from being analyzed? Mightn’t we find that beauty is ____ physical reaction to _____ and the chemicals being passed between X physical process and Y physical process, within our brains, produces a physical feeling of hope, awe, disgust, beauty, transcendence. I mean, aesthetic reactions “seem to often be at least partly intellectual and interpretative. It is what a thing means or symbolizes for us that is often what we are judging”.
I’m curious to hear you define what you mean, especially as it relates to religion. Thanks for writing.
August 1, 2008 at 1:04 pm |
I think if there’s a breakdown in communication here, it’s because you’re logically assuming that my comments were more on-topic than they maybe were. Admittedly, I have a tendency to get sucked away from whatever the intended subject of a discussion or debate is and towards any closely related topics that interest me most.
You seem to be holding reason/logic/analysis/the scientific process (I know those aren’t all the same thing, but you can see the common thread) up pretty high as the standard against which other things need to be measured, even if not intentionally. You’re just currently much more satisfied by rational input than other types of input right now, and I recognize it because that’s largely the mode I’ve been operating in of late. Maybe I shouldn’t make so many assumptions about what you’re interested in and how you’re thinking, but we’ve talked about this stuff enough recently that I feel pretty aware of what you’re after.
My comments don’t really offer much of anything in the way of explaining why your rational arguments against religious dogma might not be true; as you know, I’m not somebody you’ll find defending religious dogma as a reasonable foundation for discovering truth. Instead, I wanted to offer a different perspective on reason/logic that has been very powerful for me and really challenged my mind given my recent value-scale for different types of thinking.
Since logic and reason have, of late, been the metaphorical rock on which I’ve been standing – even if I acknowledge that they aren’t everything – I found it a very rich experience to try on a perspective that turned the analytical microscope back on reason/logic/analysis itself. And I thought that since you and I have been on such a similar wavelength lately, you might also get a lot out of that perspective.
I really recommend you read that book.
August 1, 2008 at 1:17 pm |
Damn, I wrote a big long response and then lost it before I could post it. I find it EXTREMELY frustrating when that happens because I now feel like I’ve lost some of my motivation. I will summarize though. The idea that aesthetic awareness does not derive it’s value from reason – ok fine. I’m not saying we have a thorough understanding of all of these levels of awareness. Also, I would agree that “standing at the window of our empirical world and staring out at the transcendental” is all well and good. However, like you said Thor, people will often attempt to speak from a place of reason about things that aren’t reasonable. This is where I take issue. This is the notion I feel the need to disabuse people of. Reason, whether you like it or not, is our best known tool for making decisions in almost any forum right? If I throw somebody a bone and say…..ok, as long as you admit that you are operating outside the realm of reason, then fire away…..I fear that this will be grossly misinterpreted. People will think I am throwing them a much more substantial bone than I actually am. If you are operating outside the realm of reason, then don’t USE reason to justify your response to your experience. Did that make sense? Again, I’m not saying experiences that can’t be addressed with reason aren’t valuable, but to make claims about reality based on these experiences, would be an UNREASONABLE action. No?
August 1, 2008 at 1:18 pm |
Fair enough Thor, I know that was aimed at Ben, but I would be interested in reading that book as well.
August 1, 2008 at 1:43 pm |
I’ll definitely read that book again, Thor. Thanks for the recommendation. I read it once, in 2002, but that was a while ago, and I figure its the type of book that you can get something new out of each time you read it…
August 1, 2008 at 3:36 pm |
To clarify, I wasn’t trying to equate the number 3 with God, or even draw any lengthy parallels. I was just giving an example of something else that is real (I think we all agree that 3 is real?), that exists outside of the physical confines of science.
Numbers are real in and of themselves, and they transcend science. If every physical property on earth changed; if everything we know about the universe’s physics and science were rendered obsolete, numbers would still hold their same function, and would be just as real.
Science, and the scientific process have no impact on the reality of numbers. The only idea was to say that if one such thing is possible, then maybe others are too.
Do I think I’m proving that there’s a God? Of course not. I’m just saying that for some things, scientific proof isn’t necessary in order for them to be true; their existence transcends science.
PS – It’s funny, Thor, that you’re promoting Zen and the Art of Motercycle Maintenance. That was the first book I ever remember starting to read that I consciously decided not to finish. It bored me out of my mind. I think I was 13 at the time, so maybe I should give it another try.
August 2, 2008 at 11:45 pm |
You guys have to all be crazy/unrational to think that any true understanding/ experience of ‘reality’ (whatever that is) can lie (pun intended) solely on one side of the religion vs. science……. aesthetic vs. rational etc. dichotomy. It must be a blend of the both. Reason alone does not make up life. Feelings/intuition exist and have there place in the world the same way that reason/understanding do. It is the junction and unity of the two worlds through a well felt, intuited/critically thought-out life and existence that holds the truest AND most meaningul existence. Perhaps you all have spent a long part of your life on one side of the spectrum, so that you are experiencing a recent pendulum swing to the other side…. but any well balanced, purposeful life will gentle its swings and steady towards the center. To think that it only exists on one side is extremely naive.
August 3, 2008 at 3:15 pm |
I would say that a far more naive action would be to put your faith in something that has no evidence to support it or rationality behind it, and to hold this up as a virtue, despite the fact that in every other forum of your life, reason and rationality have always been the most effective tools? Why abandon them when it comes to religion? Why does “religion” get such a special pass? Why wouldn’t your experience be a blend of science, religion, and ANY OTHER flying spaghetti monster that you want to make up? Why does conventional religion get a free pass here? On what basis does conventional religion really deserve such a big piece of the pie when it comes to speculation about the universe? It’s a complete and total fairy tale. It can’t be proven to be untrue, but is that really something that somebody can hang their hat on as far as what they actually BELIEVE about the world? This seems very strange to me.
August 3, 2008 at 4:10 pm |
Religion should not get a free pass. I am not defending religion in its collective historical context. I am defending what religion/sprituality/even art attempts to address, that is the un-measurable parts of life. Religious/spiritual/aesthetic thought should be held in the light of critical inquiry. I agree with that. Nobody here argues that you shouldn’t reason. The point is that religion etc. both on the collective and personal level, and aesthetic thought addresses issues that science is unable to. Because it is naive to think that the only things in reality that are real are things that can be measured or undergo (the often paradigm shifting views) of science. Spritual thought can go through rational inquiry. But rational thought alone is voided of essential parts of the human existence….i.e. feeling, love, intuition, emotion….the whole RIGHT SIDE OF THE BRAIN. Your argument is missing half of your brain. It is the existence of BOTH the aesthetic and affective side with the rational, scientific side. You need both. Religion, that is your assumption of religion being only that of blind faith is void of rationality. But blind rationality is void of the other half of our existence. The transcendental side. The side that cannot be measured. Religions use (when used unadulterated )comes in the collective effort to address the spiritual side of human existence…..the same way the scientific process is the collective effort to address the measurable empirical sides of life. You need both.
August 4, 2008 at 12:41 pm |
Ok, first of all Josh, let me say that I really appreciate what you wrote. You have clearly put a lot of thought into it, and you are obviously a thinker and not just a sheep. I have tremendous respect for that. Having said that, I will retort again here. I think I understand what you’re saying for the most part. I know there are many feelings and senses that science hasn’t fully explained such as love, intuition, and emotion. I fully understand that and would never say that you shouldn’t explore those feelings or take them seriously. They are a huge part of who we are. I would encourage people to explore and deal with these feelings in a healthy way. However, what I’m referring to specifically, is FAITH and/or BELIEF. The entire concept of FAITH seems harmful to me. Exploring and experiencing the aesthetic or spiritual (whatever you want to call it) aspects of your life is just fine, but the process of coming to a CONCLUSION (faith/belief) about REALITY is decidedly a SCIENTIFIC process. Experience, speculation, and reflection is well and good…..but faith? Why faith? Why belief? If the evidence points against what you believe, why would you believe it? I think even people of faith can acknowledge that they don’t KNOW. They really just HOPE. You said that religion is the “collective effort to address the spiritual side of human existence”. First of all, instead of referring to it as the “spiritual side of human existence”, I think it’s more accurate to call it “the side of human experience that we know less about.” Either way, addressing it and drawing conclusions from it are different things. Take organized religion – Why do people indoctrinate their children with something that is clearly subjective, and present it to them as objective fact? Isn’t that irresponsible? Either way, you might be surprised to know that science actually has uncovered SOME things about that side of existence. Take the extremely powerful feeling of natural love you have for your family members for example. That feeling makes complet evolutionary sense. It’s a completely evolved emotion. Animals that care SO much about their family that they are even willing to die for them will be more effective, over time, at helping their genes live on. In fact, if it hasn’t been mentioned before somewhere on this site, I HIGHLY recommend reading The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins. It’s the most interesting reading I’ve ever done in my life. It was extremely valuable in the way it helped me view the universe. Josh, I bet you would find this book very interesting. Anyway, keep the posts coming. I love discussing this stuff.
August 4, 2008 at 3:27 pm |
Good reply derek, I am enjoying the conversation also, it is a good thought catalyst and for that reason I do plan on reading your suggested book. I have read blurbs by him in the past which were referred to by other authors and articles. He has been on my list of reads for a while. All this talk does occupy my mind during these recent days. And that (for now) is a good thing.
I still have many things to reply, but I will stick to a few for now. One point being that the whole concept of faith/belief is there because there IS an absense of knowledge. There are some things that are genuinely unexplainable, even ineffable….which is why mankind has adopted faiths. The idea of faith IS a trust in something that there is no empirical proof (the idea of internal, mystical, experiential proof is another topic, for you cannot demand to proof transcendental things with physical things). To put it simple, you cannot hold faith up and complain that it is not fact. It is like getting angry at an orange for not being an apple. (great analogy, I know). From what I gather, you don’t necessarily disagree, your complaint is that religion is the presentation of these ’subjective’ beliefs as ‘objective’ facts. This is what creates a cognitive dissonance that most of us have experienced and/or been upset with to some degree. But here is where your blanket complaint of religion is week, because there are religions/faiths that present their ideas as one of many, and say there are not the only way. Many great religious founders (intentional or not) have said in a word “this is what I have discovered, go and discover it for yourself. I am not saying that these doctrines are true for all or even a large percent of religions, but it is true for some. I am also well aware of parents that teach their own religious values as personal ones, and encourage children others to find for themselves. Your complaint is a valid one, but simply not true for all. Go phils.
August 4, 2008 at 7:28 pm |
Sorry, I meant to keep this short, but I wanted to respond to your evolutionary explanation of familial love too. To be fair, what you state (and I do believe it….key word there is believe) is actually a theory. It is not an undeniable fact, it is a mere construction of different hypotheses. It is a conclusion that individuals, as well as collective schools of thought believe. It is a theory, and a good one. But to present it as entirely objective would be false.
For evolutionary thought is applicable to almost everything. Even our natural reaction to being tickled can be explained as a Darwinian defense to protect the vulnerable parts of our bodies. Fear, an emotion, is another easy one….as it encourages reactions (fight or flight) favorable to survival. There are even measurably components correlated with fear (amygdala activity, hormonal output, increased blood pressure/heart rate). Science does have a growing amount of data related to these emotional etc. states, but none of which can even brush the membrane of the actual cognitive and affective experience of it.
There is a world within our world, a life within each of us that experiences, that is thinking and feeling, that allows us to have these conversations and be stimulated, frustrated, or upset with what is said. Anything that science does to suggest meaning or motivation to these states, is merely conjectural. Theoretical. It can try, but it will fall victim to the same criticism you hold against religion for trying to do the same, because even science hinges entirely on the dependency of the(often flawed) ability of man to think rationally and reason…..that is, the entire scientific process is completely dependant on cognition, a facet of human life that extends well beyond where simple empiricism can reach.
August 5, 2008 at 11:34 am |
First of all, go phils is right. Secondly, I understand that theories are just theories and that we don’t necessarily know for sure what is going on with a lot of things about the universe, but that’s actually supporting my whole point. All science does is say “here is what we know and here are our best theories”. I don’t BELIEVE anything that lacks evidence. It wouldn’t make sense. I give it a certain likelihood. The best scientists in the world have determined that most specific religious beliefs are extremely unlikely given the information we have, so it seems illogical to believe them. That’s all we REALLY have to go on. To ascribe JUST as much validity to some arbitrary spiritual process that “can’t be explained” by science seems absurd to me. Also, the best theories, like the theory of evolution, are so widely accepted that they are CLOSE to fact. If science has determined that there is a 95% chance that a particular theory is accurate, according to our best information, how can you trust a “spiritual instinct” or “religious fairy tale” that goes against it when you know that we know so little about the validity of those kinds of instincts? As always, I appreciate and encourage these debates. Thanks to everybody who gets involved.
August 5, 2008 at 12:27 pm |
This is all a little bit comedic. We have two camps, both of which require a certain amount of faith:
1) Those who believe that truth exists solely on the physical plane and can be proven by science.
2) Those who don’t.
If your baseline platform is that truth can only be found in the measurable, then of course organized religion, dogma, etc will sound absurd and unreasonable. This is a logical conclusion based on your starting point.
If you believe that there is truth outside of what can be measured, then you will create a space in your life for a God and the religious framework (dogma) through which you best try to understand Him. This is also a logical conclusion, based on your starting point.
If you take things far enough back, there is uncertainty. What existed before the big bang? Create a theory for that – what existed before that theory. Either you have faith that there is a God, or you have faith that there isn’t. If it can’t be proven but you believe it to be so, then you’re operating on faith.
If we can’t prove either camp to be right or wrong, the question becomes how can we live our lives to the fullest, given the uncertainty inherent in the world? Personally, I’ve found that chosing to have faith in the existence of a God is rewarding. Logically, I also think that there’s a lot less long term risk to this choice.
Everybody gets to chose which faith they’ll embrace – hopefully we’ll all chose the one that helps us to live the best life possible.
August 5, 2008 at 1:41 pm |
Very well put KJ. That is essentially my point. You either believe that
A) all conclusions/beliefs about reality can only be reached via empirical evidence, or
B)conclusions/beliefs about reality can be reached via other internal, mystical, logical theory, etc means without empirical evidence.
You cannot prove that either mode of thought is true. You cannot prove the objective reality of empirical absolutism. Therefore, that whole idea of science is a faith/belief structure in itself. It is unprovable therefore can be criticized in the exact same way that you criticize religion. We don’t know. I don’t know. You don’t know.
To be clear, I am not negating scientific theory of things such as photosynthesis, oxigination, or even evolution, because they exist within an empirical plane. You can (and I do) agree with these findings due to their evidence…..the same that you can agree with religious dogma due to your own internal, experiential evidence and the evidence of others. I am saying scientific thought as a whole is limited itself. And cannot be the sole means for explaining reality. You need both realms. But at the same time, I am not defending specific religious ideas as being true….I am defending specifically, the idea of religion.
August 5, 2008 at 3:33 pm |
KJ,
I’m unimpressed. Just because you believe there is truth outside of the measurable, does NOT mean that you will create a space in your life for dogma. Why on earth, or anywhere else for that matter, would that be the case?
You don’t have to have faith that there ISN’T a God. What a ridiculous premise. Why can’t we just say, “I don’t know and I refuse to pretend I do.”??
Is that just too reasonable?
Ben
August 5, 2008 at 5:57 pm |
I never mentioned God.
August 6, 2008 at 7:49 am |
yeah, quick point here. I’m not claiming that either side will be able to PROVE the ideas they stand behind. It comes down to mathematics though. What seems more likely? If one theory seems more likely than another, why wouldn’t you at least acknowledge that? There seems to be a fairly common idea out there that in the absence of PROOF, blind faith is a legitimate next step. I don’t know where that idea comes from. What about the idea of an educated guess?
August 6, 2008 at 8:53 am |
Call it a semantics typo when I wrote “you will create a space in your life for a God”. Instead of “will”, I should have put “can”, “may chose to”, “might”, or some other such word that leaves open your possibilities.
Ben, you write “why can’t we say ‘I don’t know and I refuse to pretend I do’. Is that just too reasonable.” That is perfectly reasonable. You’ve drawn a completely logical conclusion. It’s just not the only conclusion that makes sense. A different completely reasonable, logical person can look at the evidence and say “While I can’t definitively prove that there is a God, the many mysteries of our existance can best be explained by One.” I’m sure there are other reasonable conclusions that could be drawn too.
Derek, as long as you’re talking about mathematics, think through Pascal’s Gambit.
August 6, 2008 at 9:27 am |
yeah, I know all about Pascal’s Gambit or Wager. Here is my issue with it: Dawkins sort of gets into this in the God Delusion, but first of all, BELIEVING and pretending to believe are two different things. I could act as if there was a God and lead my life the way a religious person would just to “be safe” but it’s not really going to mean that I BELIEVE in him. It means that I’m hedging my bets just in case, so that I can “go to heaven” or something along those lines. Also, if there IS a God, do we really think he’s going to reward me for hedging my bets? Is that the virtue that he’s looking for? Or would you guess it’s more likely that he would respect my honest reflection on the world that I am experiencing? By the way, I doubt there is a God, I’m just theorizing here on if he DID exist.
August 6, 2008 at 10:06 am |
Also, I hope I didn’t come off as overly judgmental and egotistical there. I wasn’t trying to insinuate that a God would like me better than other people who don’t think like I do. I was merely pointing out that, if he exists, believing in him isn’t NECESSARILY going to be something that god would admire, which is what Pascal’s wager is based on.
August 6, 2008 at 2:18 pm |
Good convo guys. I just want to comment on one of dereks comments where he said…”there seems to be a fairly common idea out there that in the absense of PROOF, blind faith is a legitamate next step.”
You are jumping too quickly to blind faith. Blind faith (I would define as faith, not only without proof, but without any logical inference or critical thought) is not always the next step. Faith as a belief (not necessarily claiming to be fact) can be encouraged or personally, socially validated to an individual or group through internal experiences, rational thought, feelings, understanding, and critical thought etc. It is not completely blind if it is questioned and challenged both on the personal and public spectrum, which religion is. Your complaints are blanket statements again, and are only true, generally, for fundamentalist religions. Its simply not true for all.
August 9, 2008 at 12:25 am |
Thor:
“What I don’t think is anybody’s direct intention, but what often happens through carelessness or lack of distinction, is that implications arise that 1) analysis is the only valuable type of awareness; and 2) aesthetic awareness SHOULD be able to withstand analytical definition.”
(2) is something I’ve stated explicitly many times. Analysis of aesthetics doesn’t degrade their appeal. If that happens it’s only because the person forgot about the experience. It would be impossible for great artists to strive for perfection if analysis impaired their aesthetic awareness.
I partly agree with Josh. There’s a lot of evidence that the combination (and not necessarily simultaneous coexistence) of analytic and aesthetic/holistic/intuitive awareness is superior to either alone. Also, that context and purpose determine the optimal application and combination of the two.
Incidentally, I agree that concept 2 is false, mainly because experience isn’t an analytical process. Analysis necessarily follows experience, even where the experience is of cognition; in all cases awareness (whether it be aesthetic or analytic) of the experience follows the experience itself.
But if you’re suggesting that there are some things we experience which can’t be analysed rationally, I disagree. Some people may not be capable of rational analysis of an experience at the time it occurs, but others with more suitable mental resources would be capable of rational analysis of the same experience, and the original person may be capable of analysis of a similar experience once they’re more familiar with it.
“I would call it an attempt to reconcile the conflicting realms of aesthetic awareness and analytical awareness by showing that they don’t overlap at all, that some things cannot SURVIVE the process of definition intact, and that it may be impossible to operate in both realms simultaneously.”
That sounds awfully like dualism. And my experiences say it’s false. I’m yet to experience anything that didn’t survive the process of definition. It’s long past time I sit down and read that book.
“rather it is experienced in attempt to answer certain uncertainties which people DO tend to experience naturally.”
Some forms of Epilepsy is one case where people can naturally experience something which has the feel of a religious experience; a direct, overwhelming, unequivocal connection with something greater than oneself. An experience demonstrably caused by abnormal brain activity. Granted I can’t say that anyone who’s had such an experience would ascribe it to God if they weren’t already aware of the concept.
“Some people will argue that God is also a name given to a widely recognized experience pattern, but I propose that it’s a name given to an answer we create to fill a void.”
God-of-the-gaps?
KJ:
One difference between 3 and God is that God isn’t claimed to be an abstract concept. Many believers say that God exists in the same way the universe itself exists. Most say He’s intangible, but still able to influence reality. The number 3 (and all other abstract concepts) has absolutely no influence over concrete reality. It’s a representation of some aspect of reality. No one is saying the same of God. The concept of God is not the formalisation of a logical axiom.
The other difference is that 3 is defined precisely. No one who understands numbers can mistake 3 for anything else.
KJ and Josh:
There is an issue with your assertion that science can’t be the sole means of explaining reality. It is that other means rely on the acceptance of statements about reality as self-evident even if they are questionable.
KJ, you mentioned uncertainty. If you accept that that uncertainty can’t be resolved (i.e., you can’t prove what’s right or wrong) then you are not explaining reality by accepting a position that wills away that uncertainty. You’re simply choosing that you want to be true.
Josh, internal, experiential evidence is so fraught with bias than any conclusions you reach about reality can apply only to your perception of reality. They provide extremely limited information about reality itself. Personal experience is a great guide for finding out what works for oneself, but it is extremely unreliable when it comes to explaining what works, even for oneself, but especially for other people or anything distinct from oneself.
August 9, 2008 at 12:30 am |
One correction to something I just wrote: “It is that other means rely on the acceptance of statements about reality as self-evident even if they are questionable.”
The foundations of and logical proposition is the acceptance of self-evident statements. Both faith and science also rely in part on the acceptance of some assumptions. I’m not suggesting that this is a bad thing, but rather than different methods of explaining reality differ greatly in the types of assumptions they’re willing to accept, and the degree of effort they put into validating those assumptions. As far as I’m aware logic and science are the only two approaches which are exhaustive in their attempts at validation.
October 2, 2008 at 1:34 pm |
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November 12, 2009 at 1:50 pm |
Hi there,
Just to chime in (about a year late…) as a representative of the “other side”:
On behalf of many of my co-religionists (that is, intellectual, daily-mass-going Catholics) I would like to clarify one point. I notice that many anti-religionists (that is, agnostics who get offended by those who are not agnostic) such as Dawkins, Hitchens, and many of you readers and commenters here, tend to misunderstand what we Christians actually believe. Here’s a little bit of info:
I know few/no intellectual Catholics who would claim to be able to PROVE the truth of supernatural events in the life of Jesus. I know NONE who claim that God is a “guy in the sky,” or any such anthropomorphic nonsense.
However, I and every Catholic I know would agree with Dostoyevsky (a doubting, intellectual Christian himself) who wrote, “Even if you mathematically proved to me that the truth was outside of Christ, I’d rather be wrong with Christ than right with you.”
What that means is that the question of whether or not God exists is BESIDE THE POINT. The point is **what one shall do with one’s day?** (shall i give money to the guy at the metro stop? shall i shoot myself in the head? shall i leave my girlfriend when she gets pregnant? shall i shut myself up in a monastery? shall i divorce? shall i masturbate?)
And we recognize that since we CANNOT know whether God exists and what form He takes, we must use our REASON and our EXPERIENCES to judge which are good and bad courses of action. However, we come up against a difficulty – namely, that each individual, having only 80 or so years on earth and none having an all-encompassing intelligence, can access only partial information. SO, we find it useful to pool our information with the information gathered by others now and in history (i.e. the saints, the fathers of the church, smart guys like Dostoyevsky…).
After we admit that 1) we don’t know everything, individually, and 2) therefore, to find out what we don’t know it is necessary to draw from OTHER PEOPLE’s reason and experiences in addition to our own, and that (this is the hard part) 3)since we must draw on others’ reason and experiences, we must simply trust our instincts as to whether those others are lying or not, — at that point, we Catholics find, in the great big 2000 years of philosophy lumped together as Catholic Doctrine, a more cohesive, less self-contradictory, more compelling, and yes, more beautiful moral and ethical structure and conglomeration of human knowledge than we find in any alternative.
So until there is a MORE compelling alternative set of experiences and insights (and I have tested many of the alternatives and found them less conducive to happiness and less ethical than the catholic ones) I’ll stick with the set of principles that my REASON leads me toward.